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Transcript for Cadets of Character Then and Now with Rick Kiernan, ’66

MAJ. CATHERINE M. ROY: Welcome to this first episode of the VMI Leader Journey for 2023, titled Cadets of Character Then and Now: Perspectives with Career Public Affairs officer retired Colonel Rick Kiernan, VMI, Class of 1966. Colonel Kiernan is a retired Army colonel with 26 years of service as a paratrooper, infantryman and public affairs officer. He served in Vietnam and Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War.
 
Other key assignments included the Pentagon, the former Soviet Union, Germany, Alaska and Hawaii. He received two Bronze Stars, three Legion of Merit Award, The Vietnamese Gallantry Cross, and the Vietnam Honor Medal for his service. He holds the Combat Infantryman Badge, Air Medal and Aircraft Crewman Badge for 100 hours and 100 helicopter missions. After active duty, Kiernan and his colleagues formed the first private military company. For the next 15 years, they served in Bosnia, Croatia, Nigeria, Equatorial Guinea and five other countries that were emerging democracies.
 
After 41 years of military service, Kiernan continues to assist veterans across America. He is a member of the Vietnam Commemorative Committee and the Desert Storm Memorial Committee. He graduated from Virginia Military Institute with a major in English and was a distinguished alumnus at the University of South Carolina in mass communications. Alumni such as Kiernan are great ambassadors and mentors for prospective and current cadets.
 
In today's episode, you will hear some great anecdotes and observations regarding his experience as a cadet from more than 50 years ago, which illustrates some of the familiar experiences of the VMI leader journey: a rigorous education, brother rat bonding, and the Honor System. I hope you will enjoy this video-recorded podcast episode as much as I did. Today's guest is Colonel retired Rick Kiernan, former public affairs officer and alumnus from the Class of ’66 to VMI.
 
So welcome, Colonel Kiernan. We thank you for being on today's show and look forward to hearing all of your insights that you have for our audience.
 
COL. RICK KIERNAN, VMI CLASS OF 1966: Thank you very much for having me here. Appreciate it, Catherine.
 
ROY: If you could just introduce yourself to the audience, talk about the trajectory of your career, and we'll start from there.
 
KIERNAN: Okay. After I graduated from VMI in ’66, I went into the Army and I served in the Cold War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War. And then we had a private military company and I spent 15 years on the global war on terrorism. So, after my 26 years in the Army, I spent three years planning the media for the Atlanta Olympics from ’93 to ’96. And then from ’96 to 2011, I was with Military Professional Resources, which was the first private military company. And so, I spent my time with them. And it was a wonderful opportunity to help emerging democracies around the world.
 
ROY: Now, was that the actual name of the company or that was...
 
KIERNAN: Military Professional Resources, Inc.

ROY: Okay.
 
KIERNAN: Our acronym was MPRI, and it was retired colonels and generals. Mr. Clinton and General Powell did not want to send troops to Yugoslavia when President Tito died. So, when they divided the country up, they sent us on our first contract to Sarajevo, Croatia, Bosnia Herzegovina, and then over the next 15 years, that led us to 12 other countries.

ROY: Okay, so you were just military advisors in what, hostile areas of the globe?

KIERNAN: Yeah, I provided the media relations to each of those countries. In other words, my counterpart, whether it was Sarajevo, Croatia, Bosnia, Nigeria, Ukraine, any of those countries, I provided assistance to them so that there would be unanimity and we would be speaking with one voice.

ROY: So that's actually interesting for you to say that. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about with your background in communications and public relations, in particular, there can be a challenge between representing a particular organization or a certain viewpoint points in a way that accurately represents the events that are going on. Stays on message, if you will, or on brand, as some people might put it, but actually maintaining journalistic integrity.
 
ROY: Can you talk a little bit about that in terms of from a leadership standpoint?
 
KIERNAN: Sure. Happy to do that. I have written one of the few books on the military and media relations, and the name of it is Headlines from the Frontline with an ellipsis that says An Uneasy Truth. You must always do is tell the truth. And when I was in the Pentagon, I had 32 correspondents who lived and worked in the Pentagon, and I was the Pentagon spokesperson for the Army.
 
But you get to know them. Wolf Blitzer Barbara Starr, David Martin, all of those. I work with them every day, 24 seven. And what my goal was to establish a symbiotic relationship. I needed them to get the message out to the soldiers and the families. And they needed me because they had to fill the news hole. And I also know that always speak with accuracy because the first time you do not tell the truth, he or she will go to other sources.
 
Then you really have a really, really big problem. So the mutual respect. They would come to me at 4:00 each day because they had to get their stories up to network by six and they would say, Mr. Rick, we have a story here that perhaps would not show the Army in a favorable light and they would have a source and give me the information.

I would say, let me check that out. And so, they respected the fact that I would listen to them and I would always give them the proper source. In a building that has 27,000 people, you want to get the subject matter expert on bayonets, on tanks, on whatever the subject may be. So, you are really the traffic cop. You direct them to the proper source who is the subject matter expert, and they appreciate that.
 
The other thing I did was during the Gulf War, which was 32 years ago yesterday, hard to believe I was General Schwarzkopf’s spokesperson that many years ago, but what I did during the time of the Gulf War, I would on Saturday mornings get the media say, okay, give me your questions off the record and I will get you a subject matter expert who can answer that question, be it on tanks, be it on tactics, be it on chemical warfare, whatever the topic may be.
 
So, I think they appreciated the fact that I would get them to the right source. And once again, I think the guiding principle is speaking with one voice. You can never, never lie to the media. Then you must always remember that it is bipolar. In other words, news is always negative. They're not going to have anything on the morning show that shows President Biden shaving, meeting his grandchildren, and driving to school with them.
 
News is negative and that's just simply the negative, the nature of it. So, my job was to provide the objectivity and the context so that the viewer or the listener or the reader could gather the necessary information.
 
ROY: Okay. What kind of leadership style would you say you exercised predominantly throughout your career? You know, I read, for example, your ‘Rick’s Philosophy,’ which could you explain that and talk a little bit about your leadership style?

KIERNAN: Yes, I always believe in helping others. And I believe the roots of that began when I was a cadet and VMI. And I found that as a cadet, not only for myself but for my brother rats and reading, ‘You may be whatever you will to be,’ that gives you a certain kind of strength, inner strength if you will. The second thing I think was the selflessness that was epitomized by General Marshall. He was very selfless and of course, went on to many, many other successful positions within the government. But I found that if you can assist someone, if you can facilitate them and helping them obtain their objective, then they needed you and you needed them. And it became once again a symbiotic relationship. I found that with my soldiers when I was an infantryman, I would get them together every two or three years. That's how often you change assignments. And when I got to Fort Bragg at 18th Airborne Corps, it was probably the largest public affairs office that I had. I had 50 civilians, Department of the Army, civilians. I had 50 soldiers and I had 50 officers. And I was the chief of public affairs for 18th Airborne.
 
So, after a day or two, I got them all together and I said, I don't want you guessing what the new boss is like. I said, here's what I see as an analogy. I think we're an orchestra. I think we all have diverse roles, notes. And I said, there are some who are louder than others. There are some who are very quiet.

But I want you to know I need each and every one of you. My door is always open. We will go through this together. I could not do this without you. And so, if you build, in my opinion, your door always open and [audio cuts out] respects the individuality and talent of each of your soldiers or civilians who you are working with, you cannot put on a one size fits all. That does not apply. Everyone has certain strengths and certain weaknesses, and you must adjust to that. And I feel if you do that, then you're going to get two plus two equals five. You're going to get maximum production from everybody concerned. They have to know you are number one. When I was a second lieutenant in Germany and we ate out of mermite cans during the Cold War on paper plates, I would not eat until every one of my soldiers had eaten. And they knew that. And my sergeant major and my NCOs taught look out for the soldiers, and they will look out for you. And if you always look down instead of up and take care of those you lead, I think that has a certain benefit and they begin to have a trust to you and a confidence in you so that you truly become a leader.
 
ROY: I would call that a servant leadership type model. I'd like to bring back, you know, how you developed your leadership style to your cadet ship. You mentioned in particular that you were a cadet waiter for three years and then you were the literary editor of The Bomb, and then that then grew into a career with the Army, with three newspapers and a monthly magazine. And then you learned public speaking, and you and I had discussed a little bit about being in the classroom and what you were expected to do. And I think you described standing beside your desk and having to give oral presentations. Was that a daily feature or just as called upon?
 
KIERNAN: Yes. No, when we were cadets in the early days to give the scope and everything on what a small situation it was, we matriculated our class with about 325, 330 folks, and then we ended up graduating with 167. So, the attrition rate was kind of high. But I do remember as a liberal arts English major, the majority of our brother rats and all were civilian engineers or electrical engineers.
 
And of course, we got teased an awful lot for reading Shakespeare and poetry, etc., etc..
 
ROY: Instead of blowing things up. [laughter]
 
KIERNAN: The daily recitation in the English system, as we called it, where you stood by your desk and recited, gave you a beginning and a really a foundation for future life.

ROY: Now, was that something that…
 
KIERNAN: [overlapping] could most.
 
ROY: Were those things that you had to memorize?
 
KIERNAN: Yeah. In other words, if you had rat chemistry, which I loved, you can imagine. But if you had to stand to recite an equation or if you had to, if you had Colonel Dillard, who taught Shakespeare for 38 years, if you had to memorize 24 lines of Shakespeare, you had to stand there. It taught you, number one, memory. If you then had public speaking and you picked up a piece of paper from the desk and then had to run down Letcher Avenue to Preston Library and come back and deliver a five-minute extemporaneous speech on that topic, it taught you the real world. It taught you a sense of urgency. And it was not theory. What VMI taught was practical application. And I found that by looking at my classmates and my brother rats at that time that the daily recitation and the seeds and the roots that you got from your big brother, from your dyke, when you had to fold his laundry.
 
My dyke, as a first classman, had been on the cadet newspaper. That gave me, as an English major, an incentive to write articles. That led to the literary yearbook on The Bomb, that staff. So, I found the little things that you learn not only in the classroom, but also from your dyke, from your brother rat, and classmates really reinforced and gave a sense of unanimity to what you're doing.
 
I find it, and not in a pejorative way, that in larger schools and universities they may have fraternities and sororities. Although we had two Sigma Nu and ATO (Alpha Theta Omega), they were founded at VMI, by having just the class and your brother rats, you were not broken up like a Rubik's Cube because of specific interests or a social interests into little groups.
 
And I felt that unanimity of being with your brother rat and being and depending on each other, I felt the seeds were planted. And I really realized after I graduated that even though we all started out together in the Rat Line, my roommates, for example, I was in room 456, which is one of the larger rooms on fourth stoop (floor), but I think they've got a vending machine now in the corner there at the at the intersection, we had five and that was a lot.
 
Usually had two, three cadets to a room, but one of my roommates Phil Tucker. Phil went on and became the first captain. Then when I was a first classman and I was down to room 147 in the corner, my roommate, my brother rat was Tom Slater. Tom then went on and became the head of the board of Governors, a wonderful, wonderful lawyer, and headed up all the lawyers there in Virginia.
 
So, I felt that we learned from it and that we were all in this together. And so, I think that was a quality that VMI taught about selflessness and sacrifice. So, I think the other thing is when you come out of VMI, whether you stay in the military or go into another career field, you had that selflessness to look for others.

And you also have a sense of service. And I think by serving others and having it work in a mutual way and you're going to be successful if you're focusing on the other folks; they realize that they appreciate that. And that's one of the big things that we learned at VMI, is that planting the seeds. Being a cadet waiter and making [audio cuts out] used to be a dollar 50 a day.

Pretty good stuff. Organized. So that by the time I was the first classmen, I had 40 cadets, waiters under me, and we would feed and crochet for 1200 men at that time. Now we have, of course, female cadets, but to feed 1200 folks at one time was just unbelievable. And to learn how to do that and to work with the staff.
 
And of course, all meals were mandatory. So BRC, SRC, DRC (Breakfast, Supper, and Dinner Roll Call) were all mandatory, as were the formations. But I think by learning that giving tours on weekends for the Preston Library, doing those little things that were extracurricular, if you will, to the academic really completes and develops the whole person.
 
ROY: Yeah, I think that that to me that's very admirable about the VMI system is that it is not just the academic rigor what you're learning in your subject matter area, but it is the schedules that require you to participate with other, like you say, extracurricular type opportunities.
 
KIERNAN: What comes through, too, is that they really kept things in perspective so that you didn't think too much of whatever was going on. The best example I know is that when I was rat, and I talked to General Peay about this all the time because he was two years ahead of me, but he and I were in Kennedy's inaugural parade.
 
ROY: Oh, wow.
 
KIERNAN: And we won the best marching unit. And that's against all schools and active-duty units, the old guard and everything else. So, it was a real honor to go by [audio cuts out] and and see five presidents. You know, you had Kennedy, you had Johnson, you had Truman, you had Eisenhower, and you had Ford. But for us to receive a trophy that was no less than three and a half feet high, which we brought to the mess hall the next day and showed it, it was just a wonderful thing that we talked about.

But in true VMI spirit, they said, congratulations, you're excused from the first CP [class period], so classes don't begin until nine instead of eight. So that was our reward.

ROY: Yeah right.

KIERNAN: They kept things in perspective. So, you never got the big head.
 
ROY: Our leadership theme this year is titled The Courage of Convictions, specifically moral courage. And again, as a PAO officer. And you've got to build trust. But at the same time, you've got a certain message that you're trying to get out to the audience that is accurate, but maybe not compromising in any way. When I say, the courage of convictions, what is your impression of what's required and maybe some examples that you experienced as a cadet if you have any anecdotes?
 
KIERNAN: Yes, I think it goes back to the Honor System. Once again, we're one of the few institutions that say I will not lie, cheat, or steal, and I think you learn that, and you balance that out with never saying anything against your brother rat or your classmate. But I think having that conviction of no lying or speaking or anything like that, cheating or anything; I think that conviction, that integrity is imbued into you.
 
And I think you maintain that throughout. And of course, other schools like West Point and duty, honor, country, and they have their mottoes, etcetera, and similar codes, but I felt that if you maintain your conviction, which you learn at VMI, and you take that, you're going to be different in many cases from your peers or even your superiors or subordinates.

ROY: Yeah.

KIERNAN: And I think it's not a matter of beating your chest or being so open about it, but it comes in quiet ways and ways to speak or in ways sometimes where you're quiet,

ROY: Right.

KIERNAN: but to be known simply as when you do speak, it is with candor, it is with accuracy, and it is with integrity. Your personal reputation is you just cannot tarnish it. You do it one time; it's over.
 
ROY: Yeah.
 
KIERNAN: And so, if you maintain that, you begin to gravitate to like-minded people. Those folks are the ones that you see later in years. And it’s just amazing to me that they recognized those qualities in you. I can remember friends and classmates visiting me in the corporate world when I was with MPRI and, not in a self-serving way, but they would say to my peers at that time who may be West Pointers or whatever, and they'd say, you know, Rick has never changed. He's still the same as he was as a cadet. He has never changed. And I think what you learn at VMI, in addition to the integrity and the hard work and the dedication, I think there is a certain modesty that you also learn at the Institute. One of my brother rats, Johnny Jumper, became the chief of staff of the Air Force.

And we're so proud of John. Another brother rat was Larry Bosi. He was a three-star general in the Air Force. And of course, General Peay, you know, being a four-star general and being in the Gulf War and then, of course, being our superintendent for 17 years, it just feeds into they had the same qualities when they were cadets.
 
They've never changed. I find the VMI graduate men and women, which I enjoy mentoring young professionals now, cadets, male and female. I think they have that quality. It's all about your classmate. It's all about your brother rat. And it's not about you. Where I think at VMI, we were all the same. We all achieved things together. And that's why I admire so much the Alumni Review and the publications that you and your office put out, Catherine, where they show the tug of war, they show the cadets climbing up the side, helping each other, holding on to each other, needing each other.
 
And it all begins there at school. And I think the character of the men and women that come out of the school today are certainly as good as when we were cadets. It's just epitomizes itself. And I'm so very proud, too, to look at the young graduates that we have today.
 
ROY: So, you mentioned that you still mentor cadets today. How are you doing that? Is that through alumni organized events?

KIERNAN: Yes.

ROY: Send-off events?
 
KIERNAN: Yes, I do that for, I do it locally, you know, at the civilian colleges in the area where I live. But I also do it through, you know, the VMI chapters and the Alumni Association. So, for example, if a cadet comes up and I had one today, if a cadet comes up on LinkedIn, so I had a young cadet come up and she happens to be in the Marines.
 
And so, you know, the old spirit of Chesty Puller. And so she has classes from, as she just indicated to me, no less than a half hour ago on LinkedIn, from ten in the morning till six at night. But I think it's good to have someone who's had a similar experience with you and say, here's what you may want to consider.
 
So, as you go through, whether it's the Marines, the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, Coast Guard, whatever it may be, once again, service. I think there are certain things you don't learn in the book and there are certain things, lessons learned, if you will, so that when you do mentor, you try and help them simply by giving life's lessons.
 
Okay, let's go through the five P's. Okay. What is your product? What are you or your service? What are you going to do? What is your process for that? What are the pitfalls? Who are your partners, etc.? So by giving them little anomalies like that in order to help them, they say, okay, here is a person who has done that.
 
And the other thing I learned through connectivity is how the VMI alumnus take care of each other. For example, when we were commissioned, there was a short period of time before we came on active duty because of Vietnam. And so, sure enough, living up in a Long Island area, there was a man and graduate CEO of his own company, and he said, okay, I'll keep you busy for the nine months, you know until you come up on active duty. And so, I would work with him during the summer, and he had Speed Queen Atlantic. He had the largest company in New York, New Jersey, whatever, Pennsylvania. So, the first summer or two, I'm out on the unloading railroad [audio cuts out] forklift. I've got the hand truck, and I'm learning it. The minute that I had raised my hand at Indian Town Gap to become a lieutenant, he said no more loading dock for you. Coat and tie. Inside.
 
Now we're going to teach you about the books. This man was a president and CEO of a company, but he was a VMI graduate. So, without others knowing about that, he would drive me home at night and bring me in to work in the morning. And that was it. But it's those VMI connections that are quiet, as I say, not chest beaters or anything else like that.
 
We just do it very quietly and very sincerely, and we build relationships with each other, and we pass it on through mentorship. And I think that's how we do it. I think you learn with your brother rats; you see certain traits with them in the barracks that manifest themselves later, like I said, with General Jumper and with Tom Slater and others. A good example, in the Gulf War, for example; it was very short war, and so literally 32 years ago. And so, at the end of it, we had a victory parade. It was the last time they had a victory parade in Washington, DC, was 1991, and it was June ’91. Army birthday. June 14th. Well, I was very honored and humbled to be asked to lead the Army contingent of 500 men and women.

And so, I walked as we were in the marshaling area; I walked down to see my counterparts in the Air Force and the Marines who had their little contingents. And I walked down to the Marine colonel and, don't you know, it was Woody Sadler. And he had been my brother rat, and I hadn't seen him in 25 years.
 
ROY: Wow.

KIERNAN: He was the VMI man leading the 500 Marines.
 
ROY: Nice.

KIERNAN: There are just little things. And I believe Woody and his wife still live in Lexington.
 
ROY: Yeah, I think the one of the mantras at VMI is that VMI cadets are everywhere.
 
KIERNAN: They are. They’re everywhere. And it's amazing for a small school and we discover each other in many, many different ways. The example of the chaplain at the War College, Army War College here in Pennsylvania is Pete Sniffin. And Pete is a VMI man. He is a chaplain. So, in all fields, men and women,

ROY: Yeah.

KIERNAN: it's amazing. For a small school for a small group of alumni or an alumna to just have that connection.
 
I think we're all connected that way. And the Alumni Review certainly helps. And by having our class representatives, I know we have Nick Hoskot and they do a wonderful, wonderful job of providing the glue that keep us all together.
 
ROY: So, you talked a lot about the brother rat bond. Can you talk a little bit about the challenges, perhaps, between truth and loyalty? So, loyalty I know several years ago a marketing company did a very exhaustive study of the values of VMI cadets and alumni, and loyalty was very high up there. But sometimes I found that loyalty at the expense of truth, for example, can be problematic. Can you talk a little bit about that?
 
KIERNAN: I can talk about and give you one example. When we formed MPRI, the military company, our CEO became General Vuono. And General Vuono was the chief of staff of the Army, and I was his spokesperson. So, by having him now as our CEO in our private military company, he was a West Pointer and a very selfless person. But a lot of times the people on this staff, the executives of this company, and it was a very successful company over the years, $1,000,000,000 company with 460 contracts and after starting out with one in Yugoslavia. But they would brief him around the desk. You had the HR person, you had the logistics person, whatever it may be, but behind his desk, it always amazed me.
 
He had a picture of himself and General Gordon Sullivan, who succeeded him as the Army chief of staff who went to Norwich. And that five by seven black and white photo in his office, the CEO's office, they were both standing by the Cannon Ball on Letcher Avenue.

ROY: Uh.

KIERNAN: They thought VMI simply the best school they had ever seen. Neither one had graduated. Long story short, they would brief the boss. It would almost sound too good to be true. He would say, let me think about it. Dismissed. They'd all leave the office. General Vuono would say to me, Ricky, c'mere. Close the door. What do you think? What's the truth?
 
ROY: So, he was relying on you, to be candid. Is that correct?
 
KIERNAN: Candid and tell the truth.

ROY: Yeah.

KIERNAN: And he appreciated the truth. There was a loyalty and like you have said, Catherine, between the loyalty and between the integrity. You have to balance that out. And don't let loyalty get in the way of not telling what you know to be true. Truth always wins out. You lie one time. That's it? Yeah, one time you only get one chance.
 
ROY: And isn't it true that it's best to if you can anticipate a problem for a brother rat, for example, coming down the pike to pull them aside and say, hey, I'm loyal to you, you’re my BR but let me give you a word of caution.

KIERNAN: Yes. Yes, absolutely.
 
ROY: I think that's love. If you really have an appreciation for your brother rat.
 
KIERNAN: Yes.
 
ROY: You know, love does not come without discipline.
 
KIERNAN: I agree completely. And I think you owe it to your brother or any of your VMI cadets together to look out for each other and to give them a heads up. You may be going in one direction, but I really care about you, and I care about your success. And I'm just giving you my opinion. But I don't know if you’ve considered this. I just wanted to share that with you because I respect you and I want everything to go well for you.
 
ROY: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. You know, you talked, too, about that Matriculation Week and dealing with the cadre and how difficult that can be. And when you mess up the other nine in your, your line, there might be the ones taking the fall for you. I think that that does engender some accountability then as well and that's what we're talking about when you're talking about that tension between truth and loyalty is going to them so that they know they have an accountability partner. But one whom they can trust, hopefully.
 
KIERNAN: Yes, ma'am. There is one example I'm not sure within recent history if they still use this term, but when General Peay and I were cadets, we had a step off and I don't know if they still use that term.
 
ROY: I've heard it, but I couldn't tell you it.
 
KIERNAN: It was the first time. You're not married as a cadet. Of course, the movie Brother Rat with Ronald Reagan is a wonderful movie. In the old days, you simply, it was your word. It was the Honor System. You went on your word. Well, they decided this particular year when General Peay and I were cadets that, you now had to sign a piece of paper. And it was I am married. I am not married. You had to check block and sign your name. Well, the first classmen didn't think that was such a great idea. We believed you go by your word. You tell the truth. So, the first classmen took over. This is the first classmen now. We're letting you out of the Rat Line. Go upstairs. Get in your room. And that was it. Everything was just in turmoil. The first classmen did not like having to do this. They felt like they were being challenged. They did away with the paper. There was no more. They just went by your word of mouth.
 
ROY: Did the commandant eventually agree to that or what happened?

KIERNAN: He moved along, and we got another commandant.
 
ROY: Well, the superintendent must have sided with you guys then.

KIERNAN: He was a marine. Gen. George R. E. Shell.
 
ROY: It's interesting to hear you talk about some of the controversies that occurred even in your time, because to hear it sometimes from the old corps, it was like, no, everything was smooth sailing. We had the best experience. And but what I'm hearing is that every generation, if you will, of cadet as some kind of controversy that they face or go through or hardship and change that happens, change in traditions, change in policies and procedures.
 
Any change of leadership, any change that comes along. I really have always felt that the person in charge, there's been a certain review of their character, a review of their qualifications, etc., etc. And I really believe that people come out with the best intentions, and they want to make the best rules within the recommendations that they get from their staff, the board of visitors, whatever it may be, but it may not be the most popular decision that is made.
 
ROY: Right.
 
KIERNAN: And so, I have to give that a lot of context. And once again, look back on, you know, more than 150 years and say there's been ups and downs and perhaps we didn't have the continuity of having, you know, Francis H. Smith as a supe, you know, for 50 years. Right. And having, you know, General Peay for 17. There were a lot of iterations in between with General Knapp and others but I try and give a context.
 
No one is perfect, no institute is perfect. And I've always gone you have a synthesis, you have a thesis and an antithesis, and that becomes a synthesis, and then your synthesis becomes the new thesis. And I think things move along in an iterative way that way.
 
ROY: Yeah, yeah.
 
KIERNAN: That's the way I've always looked at it. So, there is no perfect. And I think you have lessons learned. Okay, we tried this particular regulation, we tried this particular administrative, etc. It needs some adjustment, but I try not to have it polarized or manifested, you know, by sometimes the way the media may do it. But I think everyone from the supe on down to the cadets, to the rats know this is the most wonderful school. Know the Institute. Know the tenants by which it was built. And they want to enhance it and they want to embellish it as they go through it, no matter what their position is within the organization. That's my belief.
 
ROY: Yeah. Well said, too. I would agree with you completely. So, what's ahead for you? What do you what do you hope to do with, you know, with your life? Do you have certain plans or objectives you're trying to meet?
 
KIERNAN: So, I do.
 
ROY: Tell us about that.
 
KIERNAN: I do, Catherine. And what I do now is I'm updating my book, which is about the military media relationship. I'm going to make it a little better. It's about 365 pages now. It's a little, little bit esoteric. I want to cut back on the annotated bibliography on the First Amendment, perhaps insert some graphics into it, change the title and call it from the Foxhole to the News Hole.
 
So, it's the same balance, same comparison. So, I’m updating that book. I continue to volunteer with the local media and the NBC channels and here in Philadelphia whenever they have a military story. I find that keeps me up to date on current situations, whatever it may be, Ukraine or whatever. I’ve finished my time with the 50th Commemorative Committee for Vietnam.

I would go around for the last five years to give speeches in the area. We've just put in a statue last November for the 91 people that were killed in Vietnam here in lower Bucks County in Pennsylvania. And now I'm on the Commission for the Desert Storm memorial and I'm helping them. We're going to put that memorial in adjacent to the Vietnam Wall in Washington.
 
So, working on the Desert Shield Memorial, having been part of that, updating the book. Go ahead and getting around to mentor a lot of the youngsters in this area. Go to Drexel, go to Temple, Westchester and some of the schools up here in this area. Once again, I feel by having someone who's really had those experiences, it compliments, you know, whatever the professor is teaching.
 
ROY: Well, Colonel Kiernan, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. And thank you so much for volunteering your time to be on our show. I'm hoping that the cadets will enjoy it as much as I have.
 
KIERNAN: Great. Well, thank you very much for your time and for your program. It's a wonderful way, I think, to get the words out to to the next generation. So, thank you for what you're doing.
 
ROY: Yes, absolutely.
 
KIERNAN: Yes, ma'am.