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• Our Mission: This podcast aims to share leadership stories from our VMI Corps of Cadets and high-profile leaders who visit the Center for Leadership and Ethics and VMI.
• Your Hosts: Derek Pinkham, Conference Project Manager and Emily Coleman, Assistant Conference Planner
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This mobile episode captured in our Center's Green Room features our 2019 summer interns and brand new VMI alumni 2nd Lt. Jeybriel Townsend and 2nd Lt. John 'Jay' Forehand. They spoke with Emily and Derek about their experiences at VMI before they left town for duty assignments. They talked about the unique VMI experience, the Rat Line, and leadership transformations. 

Hailing from Fayetteville, NC, Townsend was introduced to VMI by a high school teacher. He was a computer science major here at VMI now a 2nd Lt. in the Army Reserves.

Forehand is a Roanoke, VA native, graduate with a degree in international studies, and commissioned in the Marines as a 2nd Lt. Jay became acquainted with VMI as a kid and would visit post frequently with his dad.  He knew he wanted to be in the military since junior high school.

Our Center's mission is to enhance the VMI citizen-soldier journey with programming that educates, engages, and inspires critical thinking, ethical decision-making, and leader development. For more information about our Center and its programming, please visit the Center for Leadership and Ethics. 

In this episode, we touch on the following leadership competencies from the VMI Leader Journey: motivation, personal values, mentoring, teamwork, inclusion, and helping others.

TRANSCRIPT for The Rat Line and Leadership Transformations with Townsend & Forehand '19

COLEMAN: Welcome to the VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics’ Leadership Journey podcast  

PINKHAM: This podcast aims to share leadership stories from our VMI Corps of Cadets and high-profile leaders who visit the Center for Leadership and Ethics and VMI post.    

COLEMAN: We're on this journey with you!   

PINKHAM: Hello, I’m Derek Pinkham

COLEMAN: and I'm Emily Coleman  

PINKHAM: We're your hosts for the podcast.   

COLEMAN: Our guests for this podcast are second lieutenants Jeybriel Townsend and Jay Forehand, VMI class of 2019, Center for Leadership and Ethics’ interns, and second lieutenants in the Army and Marines. 

PINKHAM: We sat down with them together in September before they left for their military assignments.   

COLEMAN: And without further delay, we give you our two, second lieutenants Jay Townsend and Jay Forehand.   

So, we’ve got two Jay’s with us. Jey 1 and Jay 2. First, we’ll start with “Jey 1.” Why don't you give us a little background information on you and what led you to VMI?   

JEYBRIEL TOWNSEND: So, I'm from Fayetteville, North Carolina it's right near Fort Bragg so it's a really big Army town. In high school, I pretty much always wanted to be an officer in the military. I was really leaning towards the Air Force, but that didn't work out and I had my one of my high school teachers… actually, he knew VMI alum so he came to my school introduced us and that's pretty much how I learned about VMI my senior year of high school.  

COLEMAN: Really? 

TOWNSEND: I applied and got in.   

COLEMAN:  Did any of your family members… are they in the military?   

TOWNSEND:  I have several cousins that are in the military but my parents weren't in the military now.   

COLEMAN: So, the only reason you knew about VMI was because some teacher at your school knew alums?   

PINKHAM: Yep. Yeah, well, that’s quite a network, actually.   

COLEMAN: Jay [Forehand]?   

JOHN 'JAY' FOREHAND: All right, so I'm from Roanoke Virginia. So, I'm only about fifty minutes away and so I grew up knowing what VMI was and my dad would drive me up here we’d always you know look around VMI we see the brass marching around and so when I applied to college, I only applied to VMI and the Citadel and the Citadel. I always wanted to go to VMI but those kinds you know an extra just to back up. But it led me to wanting to do the military path. I also really know where it started but it started when I was in middle school. For some reason in my head I always had okay I wanna be a Marine. I really don't know what started. I was also just I was like okay that's what I'm gonna do so all throughout a high school I had that in my mind what that I wanted to do with my career.   

PINKHAM: did you have any family members too   

FOREHAND: No.  

PINKHAM: No?   

FOREHAND: I'm first-generation VMI.

COLEMAN: Tell us why you’re here?

PINKHAM: After both graduating last year in 2019. 

FOREHAND: I'm still here because I was offered the opportunity to work in the CLE as an intern at… through Colonel Looney. I saw it as a you know a good opportunity to still be involved with VMI before I go to the basic school at Quantico.    

COLEMAN: Cool. And when do you go there?    

FOREHAND: October 2nd.    

PINKHAM: Real soon!    

TOWNSEND: So, I'm just still here at VMI because well obviously, I graduated and so I'm National Guard Army so I needed a job before I went off to my Army training and my PMS Col. Wawrzyniak he introduced me to this opportunity to work at it clear as an intern and I kind of really jumped on it because my BOLC [Basic Officer Leader Course] is so long so I couldn't really work a job right before it. I jumped on this opportunity as soon as he told me about it it's been great.   

PINKHAM: I'm not smart what's a PMS?   

TOWNSEND: It's our professor of military science.   

[music stringer plays]

COLEMAN: How did you develop as a rat at VMI? Like what training was beneficial to you you know as a rat developing your I guess followership skills first?   

TOWNSEND: I think grit was probably the biggest thing I've developed as far as like a time management and disciplining things like that but grit was like just knowing that I could get to do something like even if I didn't know I could've just knowing that I had like the ability to just power through it and struggle and still get through it without giving up that was something I really picked up here.    

COLEMAN: Did you expect any of that when you came in? Because you didn't want to go into the military before is that what you said?    

TOWNSEND: No, I’ve always wanted to go to. I didn't know anything about this place but yeah I didn't know anything about the ratline I didn't know really about the RDC [Rat Disciplinary Committee]. I didn't know about straining it was really like a big culture shock to me when I got here but…    

PINKHAM: You persevered though, right?   

TOWNSEND: yeah and I got adjusted really quickly to it I had wonderful dyke he was the [executive officer] XO for a Delta Company. So, he really just taught me everything I needed to know and just assisted me.  

PINKHAM: So, the dyke system was really important for you  

TOWNSEND: oh yes. yeah, I broke my leg rat year  

PINKHAM: Wow!     

TOWNSEND: He just he always came to the hospital visit me. He would bring me ice cream all the time.   

COLEMAN: So, you had a huge support system!  

TOWNSEND: Yeah, a huge support system here especially with my leg my brother rats they were always looking out for me. My leg was broken during break out, so like oh it was really difficult to like even do everything with them I was still in a huge cast during breakout so my dyke, he gave me dumbbells. I would get out. I would have my chair or whatever my crutches and I would just start pumping.    

PINKHAM: That's a different breakout experience for sure!  

TOWNSEND: Yeah, so, my brother rats they actually uh during the end of breakout you had to take sandbags and move them to a different location to form a number. They put one on my back and I just crutched over to the number and place my sandbag there.   

PINKHAM: So, they really it really made an effort to include you in everything that's real important.  How about you "Jay 2?"   

FOREHAND: The whole toughness and grit part, because, you know, people who you know do sports or wherever they're like obviously go through things are difficult but just a whole 'nother level when you come to VMI during your rat year. It's like he says the academic struggle the physical struggle the mental struggle emotional struggle all that stuff  - it’s all relentless for a whole six months or so or however long and it's hard to really experience that anywhere else outside of here. Really for that extended period of time you know all the time because you don't get a break from it.

As long as you're in barracks, or you're here, it's gonna be there whereas you know if you're in high school or something like you'll experience a tough you know practice but it's like two hours long and then you're at home relaxing you know just hanging out stuff or I have a tough day at school when you're at school for like six hours and they're gone. Here you wake up in the morning, boom! You're hit.  You get you got a class – boom. You come back; you have rat training after that – boom! Late at night you have formation and dinner with your cadre… like it's nonstop!

Building on toughness like you said relationships with other people you're not forced but you know you have to rely on other people you almost forced to rely on other people would make it through or else I mean like I said in high school or some like that or any other school it's like you don't need other people around you necessarily as much seems like you need to have everyone around you supporting you.   

PINKHAM: It’s the common struggle… it gets you through that.   

FOREHAND: yeah and then I mean like I said you don't really experience that anywhere else except for…    

COLEMAN: Why is that necessary? Why do you guys think that’s necessary and do you I mean did you agree with it all? are you glad you went through it? 

TOWNSEND: Oh yeah, I mean you need people to get through things in life I can't tell you the amount of like rides my brother rats have given me to get back home to North Carolina or to Texas. Anything you need, your brother rats always that are looking out for you.    

COLEMAN: Yes, that’s good. That’s a good bond.    

FOREHAND: I think like for us you know in the in the military I think that VMI prepares us you know better than anywhere else for military training or things like that.  

PINKHAM: Let's talk a little bit about that. What did you guys do for leadership opportunities while you were here? Did you take advantage of VMI's system to grow in a leadership role?    

FOREHAND: Well, I think VMI has a very specific way that they you know develop you as a leader I learned. It starts, like you say, with followership at the very at the very offset. Whereas somewhere else you know a lot of people are looking to be, “Okay I'm here to be the leader…”   

COLEMAN: Yeah.  

FOREHAND: They force you to be a follower. There's no individualism.  There's no, “I'm here to be the leader.” It's like if you try to do that and you know push your boundaries, you're gonna get shot down.  So, VMI puts you on the same level as everyone else.  Everyone succeeds the same rate so long as they put in the effort. So, that's one thing that that positive.

They start you off with followership.  So, I specifically chose the cadre leadership route so I was involved throughout the whole cadre hierarchy pipeline where you know was a cadre corps my third-class year, I was the bravo company master sergeant my 2^nd class year, and then the regimental XO my first-class year. 

So, I mean the regimental XO's job is specifically rat training, cadre training, and then corps training. So, I mean, my whole pipeline training revolve around the rat line and and rat training and what I got out of that was the biggest thing was peer leadership and how difficult it is because, realistically, no one no one wants to think that they're equal or their BR’s sorta the same age is you know seen as you know higher than them so it makes sense. So, peer leadership is difficult. No one… really no one is better than one else but it's like you know somebody might see  it okay regimental XO he might think he's  better than me because he's regimental XO so then they're gonna undermine they're  gonna you know go against what you want to do because you know ego ego plays a  role in that but uh so it really is difficult to.. to...  really you just  have a job that's all you do you just do a job that's it there's no difference in  you know anything other than the fact you have a job to do and that's  something that you kind of that I kind of learned through the system here is that you know regardless of what is your roll or position is,  like, you have a job to do. You're no different anyone else. No better than anyone else. Just that you do your job. That's it and I think that's really valuable going into the military and being an officer.  It's like, “Okay you’re second lieutenant. You're no better than anyone else. You are of no more worth anyone else.” It just means you have a different job to do than other people.  

COLEMAN: Yeah, kind of leave your ego behind… 

PINKHAM: But you do need to bring people along and lead them, so, in the same way and I guess you're saying that's your job.. 

FOREHAND: Yeah. 

PINKHAM: Do it… and be humble? 

FOREHAND: Yeah, that’s like the biggest thing…  

COLEMAN: Did the Rat Line humble you?  Like as you got older? Like when you were into your second year… second and third year like did you look at rats and you're like, “I feel for you” or you, like, “Haha now you gotta  through what I got when I went through.”  

FOREHAND: well I thought of it differently... let's transform these high schoolers who have never been molded in this kind of system and, like, it's my job to mold them and make them better people in general and make them into the you know ideological VMI cadet and what I want them to be and I mean so there's more of like a molding. I'm here to mold you and make you better rather than, “Okay as now it's my turn” kind of thing... it felt like that at first wasn't there.

COLEMAN: So, it is humbling.

FOREHAND: But, yeah, it definitely is yeah.

PINKHAM: so “Jey 1" what about your transformations… as a leader?

TOWNSEND: As far as rats go?

PINKHAM: As a leader, you know, you come here as a rat…

TOWNSEND: So, the only rank I've ever held was a hell week corporal. So, that was really fun seeing how it was to be a corporal during hell we can be involved with all that we get the rat teaching them all the basic skills. Honestly, I learned a lot myself.

PINKHAM: Oh yeah!  

TOWNSEND: By being at VMI as a corporal, but as far as like higher leadership, I kind of had a more practical role. During my army training and stuff like that. So, we would always get the opportunity to be like the platoon leader and that really helped me out. 

PINKHAM: Is that in the ROTC? 

TOWNSEND: yeah, yeah, yes.  That really helped me out as far as, like, doing army training over the summer and stuff like that.

PINKHAM: Yeah.  

TOWNSEND: You just really learn how to work with all different types of people and just kind of succeed like a common goal…

PINKHAM: Right… 

TOWNSEND: That really helped me out a lot and that's gonna help me out as I progress in the Army career a lot.

PINKHAM: Great, great. I don’t know… do you have anything else to add, Emily?

COLEMAN: Um... not to that... I was gonna ask did these roles that you guys were in prepare you to be lieutenants or what other skills did you need to be in the position on you're in now?

TOWNSEND: I think VMI has prepared us like, wonderfully.  VMI really, like, pretty much puts you in every position you need to be in so you can learn you can learn that how even the lowest member of a platoon and how they need to be. So I mean, even in the Army Department, you're always at different positions even if you're not the platoon leader, you should be the platoon sergeant, you could be just an infantryman, you could be a heavy machine leader… every type of every type of position you get put in so as a lieutenant, you'll know how that person is supposed to do their job. You'll have some you have some like background on it so you don't feel so so so different from them.  

PINKHAM: Right, right so you actually have that practical experience. 

TOWNSEND: Right. Yeah yeah. 

FOREHAND: I think, specifically, the Marine Corps department at VMI does a great job at preparing future marine officers. I think, specifically, with the instruction they provide and as well their spring semester you're part of the bulldog platoon which is you kind of get put back in the ratline. So, I had the opportunity to bulldog twice. And then I did it I was the commander. 

COLEMAN: You did it willingly? 

FOREHAND: Yeah yeah it was because I went to OCS [Officer Candidate School] twice so I went to it six weeks yeah and then I was the commander the bulldog first class year, so I went through it three times through and during… seeing these different stages of development, learning the basics of a Marine Corps officer… I mean it prepares you better than anywhere else I think.

TOWNSEND: Yeah. It's really it’s really like amazing because even in the Army Department we go to these summer trainings with schools from all over the United States.

PINKHAM: Right.

TOWNSEND: And we’re always more prepared than most schools because we have FTX [Field Training Exercises] two times a year with control times all throughout the year which can be annoying but they do really prepare us.

COLEMAN: They serve a purpose.

TOWNSEND: We have land nav all the time. We have a range here. So, we have like so many opportunities to learn things and it really helps a lot.  

COLEMAN: What is something that you wish that you had at VMI or you wish you didn't have? Is there any improvements you would say?  or something you wish you had had at a certain time? 

PINKHAM: or something or maybe something that you wish you had known, say, going through the Rat Line?  

FOREHAND: I think something that I'd like to see which is kind of making leadership mandatory at the school because there's a lot of people… like not not like to an extent…. I mean because here there's a lot of people who  they go to formation go to class that's the only thing the only thing  that they do at VMI which there's so many people who could contribute so  much this place that don't that feel like they don't have the opportunity to,  aren't presented with the opportunities to do so, which I think that's really  unfortunate because you know we both have the opportunity to exercise that to  some extent so think that that we both got something  out of that think there's so many people in the school would benefit if there was  opportunities given to them …some people like people are commissioning for instance like you mentioned you know you're given opportunities in our two departments of being these leadership roles they're not commissioning or anything like that then you know then it's then it's difficult. I don't actually know what can be done about that but…

PINKHAM: It's almost a little bit like our job, right?

COLEMAN: Also, telling people that are coming here, like, get yourselves involved. Don’t just sit back because you feel a certain way.

FOREHAND: It drove me insane, especially last year. [overlapping dialogue]

COLEMAN: Like, there’s a lot to do, so get out there and do it even if it’s not given to you. 

PINKHAM:  That's a real good message!  

FOREHAND: like the amount of people that would you know complain about things wrong a VMI or things they'd like to fix or things like to do or, “Oh, I was never given the opportunity to do many things…” You have at your disposal but you just gotta, you know…

PINKHAM: It's an existential question, right, you gotta go and do it. 

FOREHAND: But I'm sympathetic because I know there's some people look they just can't or don't.  If it’s given to them, it might give them that kick start to really, you know, get the ball rolling a little bit. 

COLEMAN: Yeah.

FOREHAND: that's just because, you know, the Rat Line is just followership.  There's some people that get in that role of, “Okay that's my job throughout VMI… the same thing all across the board - I'm here to be told what to do.”

TOWNSEND: As far as me, I think VMI could do a lot with character-building.  

FOREHAND: I think a lot of that, not to have to keep going on with, but I think that has to do a lot with the ego problem. People have egos and when they feel like they're not given opportunity to do something they're gonna think, “Okay, I’m gonna backlash. I think I'm better than the system. I'm better than the regimental commander so I'm not gonna do what he says.”   

COLEMAN: But what you learn in rat training is that you’re not! That’s supposed to put you on an even playing field.

FOREHAND: I think ego plays a big role in that lack of character because people feel like that they're better than anything and everything around them so they're gonna find ways to go around it.

TOWNSEND: Yeah, I mean we shouldn't be behaving that way towards each other. We're all here at VMI together. We’re all trying to graduate. We shouldn’t be behaving like that towards each other.  

COLEMAN: Lose your ego before you come here.

PINKHAM: That's a good thing.

COLEMAN: Yeah, it is.

PINKHAM: We gotta probably wrap it up here.

COLEMAN: Well, the last question I have for both of you is what does leadership mean to you?

FOREHAND: I think I think leadership is putting yourself last, always seeking to better the people around you, and I mean.. losing your ego.. I think that's like you know that's like the biggest thing.

COLEMAN:  Good message.

FOREHAND: I mean once you lose your ego then you realize, “Oh, I come last. I put others first and it's not about me.” Oh, and another important thing about leadership is never blame others, only blame yourself regardless of what it is, you know, the extreme ownership aspect of it.

COLEMAN: That’s very humbling.

TOWNSEND: Yeah, so, what he said… pretty much leadership means to me like people first, mission second really - you should always look out for your guys, no matter what, really. After that, then the goal is to succeed in missions.

COLEMAN: Well, thank you guys, so much! I have appreciated interning with you!  

PINKHAM: [music playing in the background] The Center for Leadership and Ethics would like to thank the following: Cadet Caleb Minus '20 for the intro and backing music. Find more of his musical stylings on his Instagram page @mynus_official. M-Y-N-U-S official. Colonel David Gray, US Army (Ret.), director of the VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics, and of course, as always, our podcast guests. Find this podcast and other Center for Leadership and Ethics programming information on the VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics' website or try our YouTube Channel. Follow the VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics on Facebook, Twitter,  LinkedIn, and  Instagram accounts. See you next episode of 'The Journey.' Thanks for tuning in! [music fades]