• How to Listen: Find us on Podbean to stream our episodes.
• Our Mission: This podcast aims to share leadership stories from our VMI Corps of Cadets and high-profile leaders who visit the Center for Leadership and Ethics (CLE) and VMI.
• Your Host: Maj. Catherine M. Roy, Communications & Marketing Manager
• Follow the CLE:  Facebook  Twitter   Instagram  YouTube  LinkedIn
• Episodes feature closed captions

A Discussion About VMI’s Honor Court
With Vice President of Education Sibi Bagavathy, ’23

Maj. Catherine M. Roy: Welcome to the VMI Leader Journey podcast. This podcast shares authentic insights on leadership from the perspectives of VMI cadets, staff, faculty, alumni, and VIP speakers who visit post. I'm your host Maj. Roy, Communications and Marketing Manager for the Center for Leadership and Ethics, and this is season three, episode number five. If you're interested in learning more about VMI Honor System, today's episode is a good one. My guest is Sibi Bagavathy VMI Class of 2023. Bagavathy is the vice president of education for the Honor Court. And in this episode, we discuss VMI’s Honor System. Thank you for joining us on today's leader journey. Today we are here with Cadet Sibi Bagavathy and he is VMI, class of 2023, and a member of the VMI Honor Court. So, Sibi, if you could just introduce the audience yourself and maybe a little bit about how you came to be at VMI?

SIBI BAGAVATHY, VMI Class of 2023: Absolutely. So, I'm Sibi I'm an economics and business major [ECBU] here and a first-class cadet. So, me coming to VMI, I really wasn't set on this school. Six months before I committed to here, I knew I was going to the military. My grandfather was an officer in the Indian army, and I but to me, I just wanted to go to the military.

I wasn't really keen on the whole senior military college aspect of things and to me, I think that the appeal of just being able to go be a normal college student and do Aiforce ROTC at a normal school was, was what I was set on. And then I think this kind of changed a lot for me when I attended an S5 open house.

So, this gave cadets the opportunity to stay overnight and spend the night with a cadet and go to different Q&A sessions and really kind of get to know what a cadet does at VMI. Their day-to-day activities and everything. And I think this as it's a very cliche thing to say that was kind of my turning point, was like, okay, wow, there's a lot of really cool things going on here and I kind of fell in love with the school and decided to commit to it.

ROY: And had, what year in high school were you when you did that?

BAGAVATHY: So, I did my overnights actually very late. I did it in March.

ROY: Oh, of your senior year?

BAGAVATHY: Yes, ma'am. So I was, I didn't, I was I really came here on the expectation that I’m gonna go to go to another college. Normal colleges do Air Force ROTC. I really just only came here because my parents said, you know, at least give it a shot. And for lack of a better term, I fell in love with the school, and I came here.

ROY: And are you a Virginia resident?

BAGAVATHY: I am, yes ma’am.

ROY: Where from?

BAGAVATHY: Ashburn, Virginia.

ROY: Okay. And what was your high school experience like?

BAGAVATHY: So, my high school experience, not it's not really that many people have actually went to the military out of my high school, specifically VMI. I'm actually the first one from my high school to attend VMI, too. So, I didn't really have too many contacts back at home. So I came here with a pretty open mind. I guess I really didn't talk to anyone from VMI at all. So, it was definitely quite the eye-opening experience, seeing that the Sand Castles (slang for Barracks) for the first time. Yeah.

ROY: And had you done any overnight trips to other colleges that had ROTC programs to compare with or you just were like, I'm sold.

BAGAVATHY: So, I'd visit other schools. And again, I think that's really kind of what got me is the idea that, wow, I could live like a normal college student and still achieve that commission in the Air Force that I strive for upon graduation. And again, I can't really put it on one specific thing. Maybe it's just the way the cadets on the S5 staff conducted themselves or my actual open house host. But it was it was a very quick decision for me to make once I came here, really saw what this was about.

ROY: Well, very interesting. And you’re an economics and business major? and how's that been?

BAGAVATHY: It's actually a very challenging major. I think a lot of people associate business as being the easy major in a lot of colleges. Maybe that it's not always the case, but I think here we have really great faculty. It's very challenging coursework in my eyes and I've had a great time in the major.

ROY: And are you working on a capstone project now or...

BAGAVATHY: I am in Capstone, currently. So, we actually doing a business simulation and it's it's been pretty interesting. Kind of everything we've learned throughout ECBU, putting them all together in one. It this online simulation.

ROY: Very good. Well, congratulations on your accomplishments. And I understand you're also a member of the Honor Court.

BAGAVATHY: Yes, ma'am.

ROY: Can you talk a little bit about, like how that came to be? Is that something that you considered as you started here or what was that journey like?

BAGAVATHY: Absolutely. So, I think I started off is [...] tying it back to them. But they, they talked about the honor code then and I always find it really interesting, the idea that you could just leave your stuff. I mean, our doors don't have locks in them or they're rarely ever even locked in barracks. And I can leave my wallet right in the middle of the courtyard, in barracks, and I can leave it there for a month and nobody would touch any money out of there.

And it's such a, it's almost a very utopia-esque feeling. And I think when I was a high school student, that's what I really took away from it. And I remember anything, too, is they always talks about how you'll see money take the walls of barracks. And as a high school senior, I'm like, that's, that's got to be a joke.

There's no way. And then coming here, as a rat, legitimately seeing that. And it's not an uncommon thing to see even now I'm just when I’m walking to class. So I was like, that's pretty cool. But in terms of me being on the Honor Court, I had the privilege of at the end of my third class to actually being elected by brother rats to the system.

It really was. It was quite literally an honor to me. I wasn't really expecting to be put in that shoes, those shoes, but I think I've been able to contribute a lot to the court. I've been able to learn a lot, develop myself, but essentially as an overview though, VMI Honor Court consists of 14 cadets, seven First-Class and seven Second-Class cadets.

And we uphold a single-sanction honor system and it's completely cadet-run. So, there's different positions in the court. So, this year I'm the vice president for education [VPE], so my job consists of making sure the corps is well-educated within our system. So, everything from having corps briefs, talk about different permits all the way through, right when rats get here, trying to essentially acclimate them to the new Blue Book [of cadet regulations] and all the rules they’re expected to follow as a VMI cadet.

ROY: So, tell me a little bit about your role specifically, then, as vice president of education. Do you lead those briefs, and do you have to develop your own material for those or is there some partnership with the commandant’s staff or other, let's call them adult overseers, for lack of a better word?

BAGAVATHY: Oh, yeah, absolutely. So, it's kind of interesting because I think there's there's two aspects to my position as VPE, and one aspect of it is with the rats, and we do, we do multiple different things with the rats. We try to get as much face time with them as we really can. So, some things I do really involves disseminating down throughout the Honor Court.

So, we have company reps so if a rat has an Honor Court question, they can go to the specific company representative. Additionally, whenever we do small group briefs, I can't duplicate myself into ten different companies, so it's partially my responsibility to actually educate the rest of the court to make sure I set my expectations straight for what we want to accomplish through these briefs or this education session.

So, I’ll give an example. One group of, one type of small group education we do is jury training. So the VMI Honor Court, the way it operates is if it cadet stands at trial, it's not the Honor Court that actually decides whether a cadet’s guilty or not... It's a group of randomly selected peers who do this. And once a cadet breaks out and they’re a Fourth-Class cadet, they're actually eligible to be on this jury pool.

So, one education we actually go through a redacted case from several years ago and this is done in a small group setting just so rats are kind of able to ask their questions. They can, they’re more engaged in a small group. And then on the other side, you do have the more big groups, but the entire Rat Mass or the entire corps where you talk about things. I think one thing or.

ROY: So, if I can interrupt you for a second. So, most of the training, it sounds like, happens the rat year.

BAGAVATHY: Yes, ma’am.

ROY: Introduction to the court and then jury...

BAGAVATHY: I would say so.

ROY: Stuff like that. Are there then repeated briefs like after your, your Fourth-Class year, do you get more like a, a primer or a re-familiar... there may have been rule changes, or there may have been procedures that changed.

BAGAVATHY: Yes, ma'am. So, it's really that rat year with getting those face time with Honor Court representatives, because us has an Honor Court, for our goal for the first year, is to make sure that they actually malleable their just sponges. There's all this information they have to learn. While after that, it's more just trying to keep or instill the intrinsic motivation that cadets have here with the Honor System.

But it's very interesting that we have to take a very different approach to that compared to what we do with the rats. And what I mean with that is theoretically we could sit down with the corps every month or every week and go over the honor system, the importance of it. But would that really be effective if we just sat down with them and said this the Honor System, don't lie, cheat, steal.

And in my eyes, I think the answer is no. I think you have to be a lot more tactful with how you approach the Old Corps. I'm not saying that the Old Corps doesn't appreciate it as I or wouldn't benefit from it, but it's rather that everybody's everyone everyone has things going on here. And the last thing they want to do is essentially add more things to a cadet schedule when...

ROY: More briefs.                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

BAGAVATHY: Right? So, so whenever we approach Old Corps, it's always a lot more tactful whenever we do briefs. We make sure that there’s information that we, that can't just be sent out in email. But initially yeah, we do. We do do our best to stay very approachable in the corps. So, this goes for everything and on our doors, we actually have little Q&A cards with a QR code on it, and essentially it has page number for the Blue Book.

So, for example, people have questions about how to use a certain permit. They can just quickly get to that by looking at our door. If we're not in a room per se. Additionally, one thing with, and again, I just mentioned this, but that whole idea about having honor versus being honorable and I think that's a big thing that we want to focus on to the whole corps, because if a cadet can...

ROY: So, when you say you want to focus on, you want to focus on that distinction and would you say that you're trying to move the corps toward just being having honorable character versus here's a set of rules, don't break the rules.

BAGAVATHY: Yes, ma'am. Exactly. So because a cadet can go through the entire cadetship and not break the Honor Code, but that doesn't necessarily make them an honorable person.

ROY: Right.

BAGAVATHY: Following the Honor Code, essentially that bare minimum expectation as a cadet. But what we really want to instill in cadets is the idea that you want to do the right thing when no one's watching, even if it's not necessarily lying, cheating or stealing.

ROY: Now before we started our interview, I had the opportunity to ask you if you had taken the LEAD344 course and the discussion on that very term that you were just mentioning. You know, that that description of doing the right thing when nobody's looking, that's the definition of integrity. And I think that that is something that at the center, one of our objectives is to be integrated into cadet life and into the VMI system, the three-legged stool system, with the honor system being as the seat, then you’ve got academic, military and physical training, physical development as the three legs. And so, it is a challenge because of this. You, there's the saying you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

BAGAVATHY: Right.

ROY: And so, you can teach what honorable character looks like. You can say it's important to have integrity, but until that person decides, I want to aspire to have that kind of reputation and I'm going to work toward it, you know, it's just, it's just a set of rules.

How about yourself, if you can talk about that when you got to VMI and over the course of your cadetship, have you worked on specifically developing your own character and sense of integrity?

BAGAVATHY: Absolutely. And I think, again, this really comes down to the people that you look up to at the school, I think is a really big factor. So, for example, I know when I was a rat, of course I had my dykes [First-Class mentors paired with freshmen], but one person I really looked up to was actually my Honor Court representative, and he kind of really always talked about this and he would regularly send our company emails out essentially talking about that thing and he always ended emails with, 'be honorable.’ And I think that kind of resonated a lot with me in the sense that I think the biggest thing with that is seeing somebody else essentially embody what they say and.

ROY: Walking the talk.

BAGAVATHY: Exactly. And I think that's something that as an Honor Court, as a leader at VMI, people should always strive for it because again, it's very easy to tell a rat hey, your shoes look bad, but the rat looks down at the person who’s correcting looking at their shoes and they're also dirty. I don't think they really get much out of it.

And I think that’s applicable to multiple facets of VMI and building character. But no, to answer your question, no, I think a lot of me kind of coming here and developing as a person has come from finding other mentors at VMI, learning from them, being able to kind of pick their brain a little bit.

ROY: Is there any concern that all this information coming at them kind of turns them into what I call a deer in the headlights? Like, you just, your, you've missed... met, sorry, you've met maximum saturation and you just you can't take it in anymore. Is there any concern over that or have you seen that happen?

BAGAVATHY: I think yes. That's something that every single year, naturally it's going to happen. I know when I was a rat, I was and again, that kind of goes back to thing about having a good mentor. And I would always rely on my Honor Court representative when I write questions to reach out to them and I think is an issue every year.

And it's kind of it falls on me. It falls on the court to be able to cater and how we approach that. So, for example, this year what we do is we actually did a series of quizzes throughout the Rat Line and these quizzes essentially covered general questions. For example, you see a cadet doing X, How do you respond to this?

Or you, you signed out on this permit, but you did this. Do you need to put yourself on report? Questions like that. And essentially, we go through this data, look.

ROY: And how do you administer those kinds of quizzes? Are you using Qualtrics or....

BAGAVATHY: We actually use Google Forms. I think next year Qualtrics is another good idea. I think that both platforms have a top-down benefits and issues or it's not the right way, but either way.

ROY: Benefits.

BAGAVATHY: Right? Yeah. And I think the biggest thing about these, these quizzes we've been able to pull out is looking at this data. We've seen if 25% of the Rat Mass is getting this question incorrect, maybe we need to kind of reposition our education initiatives, focus on one specific thing.

ROY: Oh, that’s a great idea.

BAGAVATHY: I think that's helped a lot reinforcing values. Additionally, we've also one thing that we've done this year, too, is we've looked at past dismissals we've had and drum-outs [a ceremony that indicates that a member of the Corps of Cadets was found guilty or admitted to an Honor Code violation and has left the Institute] who had tried to reposition our focus on those things during education. So, for example, plagiarism is something that the Honor Court sees every year. So, this year we actually worked with Preston Library staff there, and essentially they tried to reach the rats, keeping in mind the different types of plagiarism and how to avoid them. Just so that's not an issue in the future.

ROY: Do you think that some, you know, I'm thinking about plagiarism or lying and cheating? I've seen those three instances happen as a result of students who are falling behind. There’s, of course, time management is a really big skill that cadets here have to develop and they're stressed on this constantly in terms of all the things that you all have to do a day over the course of a week and goodness forbid, if you've got a conflict with, like, NCAA sports or if you're off post for a conference or something.

So, I find that those three could have a common issue or core issue being that they just fall behind in their studies. Would you agree with that or do you find that to be the case?

BAGAVATHY: So, I think you have a great point there. I think every VMI cadet is very busy. We always have things going on in our schedule, but I think it falls partially on us to sense that it's part of us basically still that value of doing, making that hard right or the easy wrong. And it I agree it can be tough.

Let's say you're in, there, a club and you've been out off post for two weeks, and you come back and have an assignment due that night. But I think that that's kind of the importance of where time management comes into play. And additionally, there's always avenues that you can go through before you actually resort to something like cheating. And that does go into another thing about the Honor Court, our Honor System itself.

And that's the area of intent. I don't, I think we can kind of always get that image and there will be that inherent fear given we're single sanction. But we always we're not out to get people. We look at we look at cases or any reports you may receive and look at and see, truly, did this cadet have the intent to do this, and did they gain personal gain from it. And if they don't hit those things, that's not something that we're responsible to do. It could be maybe adjudicated by a different organization.

ROY: But there could still be a situation where, yes, they intended to cheat because they were cutting corners, because they were falling behind in the course and really needed to get a grade. So I wonder if there's as a mom, I have three boys myself. I would just say that I think it's important to really focus, especially as your rat year, on those class objectives, which is lead self is the first one.

So as a rat, as for your goal in terms of personal development is to learn how to lead yourself and that involves some discipline. What kind of, what are my values, what kind of character do I have and what kind of character to, do I aspire to have. Because there are certainly enough opportunities for those aspects of your character to be tested, but it's a matter of overcoming those obstacles and developing some lifelong habits of discipline, study, and doing the regular things regularly so that you can achieve and not fall behind and be desperate.

Basically, I think sometimes students in general get themselves into a corner.

BAGAVATHY: I agree with that too, and I think one of the things you're like I learned as a VMI cadet is you have 24 hours in a day. There's sometimes when you might not be able to get everything you want to get done within a day, but sometimes you see you admit when you need to take the 'L’ [loss or failing grade], admit when you're at fault, or that's when it means getting a poor grade on an assignment.

But any grade at VMI is not worth your cadetship. And I think that's something we always want to push strong. And it’s the idea that, yes, your cadetship can get very tough at times, but it's important that you stay true to your values, especially as a rat you really develop when you're leading yourself. And again, our true intention with that is hopefully to carry out that out throughout the cadetship. And once the commission or graduate. in the civilian sector.

ROY: Now, having worked on a couple of cases myself as a defense advocate volunteer, one of the things that I would stress to a couple of cadets that I’ve counseled is to say to them, you know, it's not because, for example, if you, if things go badly and they end up getting drummed out or they end up OP-ing, you know, out processing, I've told them there's no reason why the goodness of the VMI system can't follow you, because even though you couldn't cut it here, because we are single-sanction doesn't mean that you can't take those lessons and be successful somewhere else. And so, I've tried to emphasize that just so that they could leave with some sense of, okay, I fell down, but now I can get back up again.

BAGAVATHY: I agree with that, absolutely. Because I think one of the biggest things that as a court, this is the way we've always operated is whenever a cadet is found guilty in an honor violation, yes, they committed an honor violation. They broke the Honor Code which is single-sanction so they can no longer be a cadet. However, that doesn't make them a bad person. That just means that they don't deserve to wear, ring or wear the VMI uniform and.

ROY: And you say it's more, maybe not deserved might be a bit of a harsh word, but you didn't cut it. You may have made some of what I call rookie mistakes because you guys are young.

BAGAVATHY: Know heard.

ROY: From where I sit, you guys are pretty young. So, I call those rookie mistakes, but a very costly one, unfortunately. But yeah, I think they can go on from here.

BAGAVATHY: Right. And there's plenty of stories of cadets that have been dismissed or VMI, who are now doing great things in the world. So, I agree there's being drummed out from VMI doesn't mean that your life is over. You're a horrible person and it just means that you made a mistake. You’re not a VMI cadet, but there's plenty of opportunities out in the world for you, and you will carry all the lessons you learned from VMI throughout your cadetship.

ROY: Absolutely. Any advice that you have for other students or perspectives who are considering coming here with regard to the Honor System?

BAGAVATHY: So, I think as VMI as a whole to me, it's very easy to think that, OK, when you're going to college, you say that you want to go to college, challenge yourself with the opportunities, everything. But I think VMI specifically, if you if you want to challenge, you want to legitimately develop your character. Because at least in my experience, I think the whole idea of having this honorable acting in an honorable manner, having doing the right thing when no one's watching is something that’s kind of fading from society to an extent. And I think VMI is really helps you to that. And if you want a legitimate challenge at VMI, you want to leave with it as a person of character. It's it's a great place for you to develop your skills.

ROY: I agree with that. I think. Well, thank you very much for your time today and I wish you luck as you commission. You're going to be commissioning in the...

BAGAVATHY: Yes, ma’am. I'm going to be commissioning as intelligence officer in the United States Air Force.

ROY: Oh, wow. Excellent. And will you have any, any of this kind of court experience, do you think that'll help you with going forward?

BAGAVATHY: I think indirectly it will. I think I've really kind of learned how to be a great leader being on the Honor Court and as a leader in the United States Air Force. I think, hopefully I’ll carry the main values as a VMI cadet.

ROY: And thank you again for your time today. And best of luck to you in the future!

BAGAVATHY: Thank you so much.

ROY: On behalf of the VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics staff and faculty, we thank the following. Mr. Caleb minus VMI class of 2020 for the intro and backing music. Find more of his musical stylings on his Instagram page @MYNUSofficial. Colonel David R. Gray, Ph.D., U.S. Army (Retired), VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics Executive Director.

Find our podcast episodes with transcripts, CLE publications, and information about our staff and faculty, programs, and events on our website at WW dot VMI edu. Forward slash CLE. Thank you for listening. Please like this episode and subscribe to our channel.