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• Your Host: Maj. Catherine M. Roy, Communications & Marketing Manager
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VMI - a College Debates and Discourse Alliance Community of Practice
Season 4, Episode 32

MAJ CATHERINE M. ROY, Communications and Marketing Manager, Center for Leadership & Ethics
Welcome to this episode of the VMI Leader Journey on VMI’s Civil Debate Program. I'm your host, Major Catherine Roy, Communications and marketing manager for the Center for Leadership and Ethics. Virginia Military Institute has been designated as one of only ten colleges nationwide named to be a community of practice by Braver Angels, a nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting civil discourse in their college debates and discourse program.

00:00:31:21 - 00:01:04:02
ROY
Through a grant from the John Templeton Foundation, Braver Angels trained experts teach students to express their views, framed persuasive arguments, listened deeply and engage respectfully with each other around issues that are typically difficult and divisive. Their debates are not competitive, but a collective exercise in thoughtfulness, respect and a search for the truth. They are conducted in a light parliamentary style and guided by a trained chairperson.

00:01:04:04 - 00:01:29:03
ROY
Each debate centers on a resolution that is chosen in advance. On today's edition of the BMI Leader Journey podcast. We will hear more about this program, which includes reflections by VMI cadets regarding the importance and impact this program has had and will have. Through this program, VMI intends to lead the way and set the standard of civil discourse and debate.

00:01:29:05 - 00:02:08:13
LT. COL. CONNOLLY, Assistant Director, Center for Leadership & Ethics
VMI first became involved with the Braver Angels organization back in 2017, when our Center for Leadership and Ethics held its leadership Annual Leadership and Ethics conference that had the theme that year of civil discourse. And we invited David Blankenhorn, who is one of the co-founders of the Braver Angels Organization, to speak at that conference. Braver Angels is an organization devoted to bridging the political and civil divide in our country and promoting civil discourse.

00:02:08:16 - 00:02:51:18
CONNOLLY
Since then, we invited the organization back in 2021 to that year's Leadership and Ethics conference, because we learned they had a college debate program, and we incorporated their college debates into that conference. We actually had four separate debates occurred during that conference. They brought down their trained debate moderators, and it was a great success. As part of running that conference and learning about the debates and planning for it, the Center for Leadership and Ethics thought this would be a great opportunity to continue offering these debates at VMI.

00:02:51:19 - 00:03:12:06
CONNOLLY
And at that point, we reached out to the Building Bridges Club to invite them to the conference and to participate in the debates and see if this was something they might want to take on going forward. So, I am going to let Valentina talk about how that went with them.

00:03:12:07 - 00:03:49:14
COL VALENTINA DIMITROVA-GRAJZL, Professor, Economics and Business
The Building Bridges Club was established a long time ago in 2014, and part of the mission of the Building Bridges Club is to establish sort of symbolic bridges between faculty, staff, cadets and the local community. And so, when Colonel Connolly invited us to go to the debates, we thought that would be a great opportunity to see whether we could extend our programing into into something that would create further bridges between cadets, faculty, staff and the community.

00:03:49:20 - 00:04:23:22
DIMITROVA-GRAJZL
It felt like people approached the issue with empathy and and they approached it constructively, which which was so refreshing to see after all of the rancor and polarization that we've seen in the news and just in real life. So building bridges decided to to really take the lead on on promoting this program going forward and collaborating with the CLA on that project.

00:04:23:22 - 00:04:48:06
DIMITROVA-GRAJZL
And we started holding debates once per semester. We've had a number of different debates. Some of them have been very successful. Some of them have had moderate success in terms of attracting cadets to get involved. But overall, I feel like it has been a very useful and refreshing experience.

00:04:48:10 - 00:05:34:01
LT COL SARA WHIPPLE, Assistant Professor, Psychology
So building Bridges first got involved with the Braver Angels organization and the debates in spring of 2022. So, it was after the conference in the fall of 2021, and we worked together with Ackley and Braver Angels to sponsor our first debate. And it was women. I believe the resolution was women should not be allowed in combat roles. And then since then, we had a debate in fall of 2022 that had to do with social media as a threat to democracy, and then most recently, spring of 2023, the resolution was that athletes should be required to participate in all activities, including the red line.

00:05:34:04 - 00:06:08:03
DIMITROVA-GRAJZL
We had had at that point; we we had had two debates on campus and we really enjoyed the collaboration with Luke Phillips and Doug Spry. They are both affiliated with Braver Angels. Luke Phillips has been the facilitator for our debates here on Post, and Doug Spry has been the liaison for for the program. And so, we we've had great collaboration with them.

00:06:08:05 - 00:06:44:01
DIMITROVA-GRAJZL
And Doug had mentioned that they were considering putting together a research proposal to evaluate how the debates impact students and just participants attitudes towards civil discourse, toward how they approach engaging in debates and toward academic humility or intellectual humility. And he mentioned that they were applying for a big grant and that they had really enjoyed working with us once they applied for the grant.

00:06:44:01 - 00:07:13:01
DIMITROVA-GRAJZL
And they got it, they reached out to us, and they said that they would like us to be one of the communities of practice for that research project. They selected ten universities, community colleges across the United States, and they were looking for a variety of organ of institutions to work with. And so they selected us to be one of the communities of practice in this program.

00:07:13:03 - 00:07:43:11
DIMITROVA-GRAJZL
They are training us how to facilitate the debates. They are providing a lot of resources for our cadet leaders, who we will talk about in a minute, and they try to encourage us and provide resources for us to develop a community of practice, a community that is going to practice civil discourse actively, not just during the research project, but in the long run as well.

00:07:43:13 - 00:08:29:17
WHIPPLE
As the research and tell some pre- and post-test to the cadets or anyone really who participates in the debate can take. These are online surveys and they're really interested in shifts in people's intellectual humility, their willingness to engage in difficult conversations. And so these ten colleges, universities from across the country are gathering similar data. And after a year and a half, three different semesters of debates across all of these colleges, they'll pool all that data to see what effect these college debates have on students’ attitudes, perceptions of others, etc..

00:08:29:22 - 00:09:13:22
WHIPPLE
So Katie Lloyd and Devin Thomas are two student fellows. They work closely with us to devise the debates, and they were chosen because of their participation. Even before our collaboration with this grant. They've been heavily involved in the debates and now they are part of this grant process. So, they went through a selection process. They were interviewed by Braver Angels, and they represent our students and they're engaged in some training to help facilitate this community of practice here at VMI, not just in the post wide debates, but also some smaller discussions that they're attempting to get off the ground.

00:09:13:24 - 00:09:20:05
WHIPPLE
So, I'll let Katie and Devin talk about their experiences, how we how we considered debate topics.

00:09:20:07 - 00:09:43:04
KATIE LLOYD, VMI CLASS OF 2023
Hi, my name is Katie Loyd, class of 23. I'm an international studies major and I got involved with this because I really like having open, open conversations. I think it's really important to have a place where you can talk openly and freely and not have reservations about what you're, what you're going to say, where you're scared of repercussions, of what you can say.

00:09:43:06 - 00:09:57:19
LLOYD
And seeing some of these debates, how they've gotten off the ground and some things that I've seen said are it's just really cool to see a place where people aren't scared to be 100% truthful and without fear of repercussion of what they're saying.

00:09:57:21 - 00:10:26:06
DEVIN THOMAS, VMI CLASS OF 2024
Hi, my name is Devin Thomas. I'm a class of 2020 for a Institute honors cadet and international studies major and national Security monitor. I actually got involved with very, very, very angels through Katie. So Katie and I've known each other, been acquaintances for a while there in both of our cadet ships. And last fall we had a class together, strategy and power with Colonel Package and I got out to the Bay.

00:10:26:08 - 00:10:48:13
THOMAS
That's where I met Colonel Doug Gokongwei and Colonel Whipple, actually, and Luke Phillips, who's the main mediator facilitator of our debates, post-WWII that we have here. And it wasn't at all what I thought it was going to be. The structure that very, very angels provides for debates. Debates is the term that we use, but it's not a debate at all.

00:10:48:13 - 00:11:11:12
THOMAS
It's not a one side versus the other. And you're trying to argue to to essentially win and prove your point. It's a forum where people can come together and express their own views and ideas while also understanding the viewpoints of others to create that shared understanding and erode the divide that we have across multiple societies in this nation.

00:11:11:15 - 00:11:38:03
THOMAS
And so kind of what drew me in was there's no direct you versus me talk within a very, very interesting debate. Essentially, the mediator who is named the chair during the debates or open the debate up and we have opening speakers who will give a 2-to-4-minute verbal presentation on either if they're in the affirmative or the negative for the resolution.

00:11:38:06 - 00:11:59:01
THOMAS
And then once they're done giving their speech, we have questions, and the question is framed directly to the chair and refers to the speaker and the third person. So, it takes the emotion out of words and makes you really focus on the logic of what you're saying when you're asking a question or just giving a speech. So I really enjoyed that.

00:11:59:01 - 00:12:12:03
THOMAS
I got involved in the the debate. And then afterwards, Katie approached me about being a student fellow, that position and opening up, and I was pretty much all in from there.

00:12:12:05 - 00:12:26:19
LLOYD
So, it's something I've like we're looking for another student fellow for next year. Devon's more taking the lead on that because I won't be here, but I like to tell them like there's a couple of people that came up to me and, you know, why should I do this? Or why do you want why you asked me about this?

00:12:26:19 - 00:12:40:10
LLOYD
Like, why are you guys putting this out here? And it's something about just basic conversational skills and I say basic, but it's not really basic. It's maybe it is, I don't know, but it's.

00:12:40:12 - 00:12:41:28
THOMAS
Basic human decency.

00:12:42:01 - 00:12:47:06
LLOYD
Conversational skills, and not arguing and actually being able to listen.

00:12:47:06 - 00:13:09:15
CONNOLLY
I think it's an innate human need just to be heard. So when you turn on the media and they might have a panel discussion over a contentious topic, usually what it ends up is a lot of people talking over each other. And none of the people on that panel and none of the people watching feel that their point of view was actually heard.

00:13:09:17 - 00:13:37:29
CONNOLLY
So, the format of these debates is that, you know, you're actually listening and when you're talking, you feel like, all right, to hear what I what I'm saying, I don't have to repeat myself 12 times and get louder and louder and louder to know that they they've heard me, They understand me. And to me, the goal is if if I don't agree with you, but I can mirror back to you your point of view.

00:13:38:01 - 00:13:56:21
CONNOLLY
All right. What I hear you saying is X, Y, Z, that's powerful. It doesn't mean you'd necessarily change my point of view, but if you understand that I know I hear you. That's very powerful. I think that's one of the beauty of the debate format.

00:13:56:23 - 00:14:28:12
DIMITROVA-GRAJZL
I think the way we view it is as a brave space, right? It's a space where you come in and you're not afraid to share your experience, your thoughts. And we are looking for a enriching the conversation, active listening, and we're looking to to ensure that people feel comfortable engaging in a discussion, rather rather than keeping their thoughts to themselves.

00:14:28:12 - 00:15:05:04
DIMITROVA-GRAJZL
Because the way to move forward is to gain a better understanding, mutual understanding of of where people come from, what they experience, what their thoughts are. And if we don't have open conversation, then we tend to go into our siloed existence and diverge even more. And I think democracy works best if we have a conversation and if we have if we have civility, but also have that conversation and not shut down conversations.

00:15:05:04 - 00:15:48:15
DIMITROVA-GRAJZL
And for me, that has been really useful to see in these debates, having the ability to engage thoughtfully and both bolster that idea of freedom of speech and freedom of expression, but also facilitate a very thoughtful and civil discussion where everybody comes to the table in good faith. And we had a conversation about this idea of people engaging in bad faith and how the Braver Angels format tends to really draw out those people and, and show everybody that that is not a good faith argument.

00:15:48:18 - 00:15:57:17
DIMITROVA-GRAJZL
So, I found the debates to be very constructive and very enriching, not just personally, but I think as a community.