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Transcript for "Rat Line Lessons and the Value of Self-Reflection"

2ND LT. DEREK SHOCKEY, ’22: So, in my junior year, I found myself in a situation where we were correcting individuals of poor deficiencies. When we took it upon ourselves to fix those actions, I was just being a blind follower. And ultimately, at the end of the day, it resulted in my separation from the committee later on.

MAJ. CATHERINE ROY: You’ve just heard an excerpt from my interview with 2nd Lt. Derek Shockey, VMI Class of 2022. Shockey was an international studies major with a minor in national security and Asian studies. Over the summer, Shockey has been working as an intern at the center doing research for our leadership conference. I sat down with Shockey a few weeks ago to learn more about his leadership insights as a graduate. His leadership journey was a bit unusual in that he held positions in both the regimental and class systems at VMI. He will also share with us a story about how recovered from a leadership failure to which our opening excerpt alluded. We discussed what very important lessons he learned in his rat year and how he’s gone back to it time and again. We will also hear more about his work on the leadership conference and how his experiences at VMI have served him during his transition from cadet to organizational employee. Welcome to this episode of The VMI Leader Journey podcast titled “Rat Line Lessons and the Value of Self-Reflection.”

Welcome, Lieutenant Shockey. Thank you for joining us this morning. We just heard an introduction about who you are, what you did here at the Institute. So, I'd like to hear in your own words if you could share with our audience some of the leadership positions you've had at VMI and maybe what you learn from each of those.

SHOCKEY: Right. So here at the institute, you know, starting out with the Rat Line. Came in at 2018. So right off the bat, it's not really thought of as your first leadership position, but it can be skewed as a leadership position insofar as you learn how to lead yourself coming in at the Institute as a rat (newly matriculated freshman at VMI). You really learn the fundamentals of self-evaluation and how to be a team player within the environment of the Rat Line.

So that's kind of the first introduction of leadership, a leadership position. And then going into sophomore year, I was a company corporal, so I was Echo Company Cadre (cadet position of leadership). And so that's your first true evaluation of leadership. And with that, that's when you really learn how to influence others, have a little sway. Being a squad corporal, you really interact with the rats, and you take what you did rat year so what you learn from that self-leadership and self-evaluation, and you kind of take that, evolve it, mold it into a foundation for your own leadership style. And so, what I learned from that was how to effectively lead or be incorporated into a organization. So, organization being the Echo Company, really taking the objectives and missions of the company commander, the company TAC (Tactical Officer (TAC)- is the primary cadet developer and the legal commander of a cadet company) officer and making sure that the objectives are reach at the end of the day or by the end of the Rat Line.

And then my junior year, I left the regimental system, went to the class system. I was a second-class RDC (Rat Disciplinary Committee) representative. And for that position, I really learned how to effectively lead essentially an entire organization. I was one of the junior officers, so I was there to support the senior officers of the committee. I learned how to effectively lead kind of in the broad view. 

So, for that committee, we touch (engage with) all of the rats, we're involved with all the rats. So, I learned how to take what their directive was given from the seniors and the leading officials of the committee and ensuring that it gets implemented across a broad spectrum. You know, I went from only a squad and company, moved up to essentially the entire rat mass. 

And so, what that really taught me was how to effectively communicate. And so, there [were] a lot more moving parts. It’s more dynamic. And so that that communication aspect really came became key. And then my senior year, I moved back into the regimental system and became the first Battalion executive officer. And in that leadership position, your tasked with overseeing the Rat Line activities of the entire battalion.

So, I had Band (Company) through Charlie (Company) under my chain of command and what that taught me was how to effectively and strategically create plans with the guidance from the commandant, the regimental executive officer, and take that, distill it down to individual companies and to oversee all of that. And so that's just kind of a broad view of each position I had; what I did. And each leadership position I found myself in kind of evolved all off, based off of what I'd learned my rat year. Kind of self-leadership, because if you can't lead yourself, can’t effectively lead others. 

ROY: What would you say were some of the most important lessons you learned about leading yourself? Like, did you were there any surprises transitioning from high school to your rat year? 

SHOCKEY: Um, I think the biggest surprise would be the ability to work with others from, you know, very diverse backgrounds. When you're in high school, although it might be relatively diverse, it's still kind of a nucleus. You know, all those individuals you might have grown up with or from the same area, you know? But when you come in to VMI or any institution, it's all walks of life, international students, students from far reaches of the United States coming together.

And so, one of the surprises to me, when I was learning how to lead myself, was learning how to work with other people from all walks of life, you know, not that small nucleus of my hometown. And another thing, learning to lead myself was that self-discipline; to be able to lead yourself, you have to have that degree of discipline. That [transcends] all forms of leadership positions that I had at the Institute.

ROY: You talked a lot about communication and communication tactics and of course, coming together. I think one of the things I've observed and experienced myself is that when you come into a college atmosphere, especially where you're in a dorm, is that you have to get along with the other people in that tiny space pretty much. And it's all especially here via VMI, your Rat Line is lots of pressure. You talk about, you know, what communication technique makes or tactics maybe you had or had to learn in order for that to be an enjoyable experience. Because if you have an awful time with your roommates, that's pretty miserable.

SHOCKEY: Right. I really learned the best way to communicate is to learn how others communicate. I found that when I learned how someone else communicates, I can tailor my leadership style or how I communicate to them to more effectively reach some outcome or to effectively get a message across to them. Whether it was my roommates or someone above me or below me within the organization here at VMI. 

And so that's really what I took out of VMI. I was learning how to, to gauge other individuals and how they communicate or how they operate within a group or individually. And that way you can better suit them and suit the organization to get that the outcome that you want.

ROY: You know, I think that when you listen to language choices, style of communicating from other people if you have the ability to tailor what you're saying and how you're saying, I think that is a great line into leadership because it is about influencing people. And if you can't communicate with them effectively in a way that they need to be spoken with, then I think that influence is greatly hindered, if not completely blocked.

You also mentioned that you kind of went between the two systems, the class system, and the regimental system. Can you talk a little bit about the differences between pursuing leadership opportunities in one versus the other?

SHOCKEY: Right. So, for the class system, I found that to be kind of more of a macro view if you will. So, yes, there are several organizations that are incorporated into the class system, and they kind of have an overarching influence at the Institute. So, being on the Rat Disciplinary Committee (upperclassmen who are members of the Rat Disciplinary Committee provide guidance to incoming freshmen on uniform, behavior, and other standards), I got a broad view, kind of that 1,000-meter objective, if you will.

And so, I really learned how to kind of effectively operate in a system and lead in a system. The class system enables you to be a leader down to the individual letter level. But more, more broadly speaking, it does kind of have an overarch of the Institute.

So, you're kind of, you're learning how to lead more individuals or a bigger group or influence a bigger group vices in the regiment or system. When I had rank, yes, though I might have been the first battalion executive officer and I might have had a leadership position or the ability to influence a whole battalion. I can go to a whole company. I can go to the company level. I can even go from the company level to a single platoon and influence them, or I go down to single individual in a in a squad and tailor my leadership styles that individual. So, I think that's the biggest difference in the class system and regimental systems. They have different challenges in and of themselves. You know, the regimental system is very rigid and structured and has different objectives than that of the class system.

And so, I like to think I'm very fortunate enough to have been in the class system, lead and operate in the class system, try to, you know, support and achieve those objectives of it, and also be in the regimental system that has a completely different objective than the class system. So, I kind of got the best of both worlds there.

ROY: Excellent. And then you talked about being on the Rat Disciplinary Committee. So having, having gone through the Rat Line and having to interact with the folks on that committee and then being a member of it yourself. Can you talk about that experience a little bit and what the differences were?

SHOCKEY: As a rat, you're kind of struck in awe…

ROY: [laughs] Deer in the headlights!

SHOCKEY: …when the when the committee is around. But when I was a rat, you know, my dyke, he was on the committee. He was my company representative, actually. And though some individuals might be kind of struck by individuals of that committee, I always held them in a high regard. And then come my junior year, when I did become a member of the committee, I realized the true essence of that committee.

You know, I had a great deal of respect for them when I was a rat, but I had more of a respect for those individuals when I was a junior.

ROY: Would you say that that was because of who else was on the committee or because of the seriousness of the task in front of you?

SHOCKEY: A little bit of both. So, the like-mindedness of the individuals on the committee, it's essentially like a brotherhood, if you will. A brotherhood meaning that there's that shared objective to transform, you know, high school students. And in from the entire rat mass into a cohesive class at the end of Breakout (a culminating event which takes place in the spring semester and officially incorporates freshman ‘rats’ as Fourth Class Cadets). But also because of the, the way in which the committee operates, it's very professionalized that the discipline is within the committee.

It is second to none here at the Institute solely because of the standards in which they hold themselves to. So that way they, we like to say the gatekeepers of the Institute solely because of the way we operate and the way we present ourselves. You know, there can never be anything wrong when you go and stoop (a term for the floor landing where cadets may conduct class briefings) on the committee because as soon as you correct someone for something but you're deficient in it, they notice that. 

And that's a lack of leadership on yourself. So again, it reverts back to being able to lead yourself, you know, self-evaluate. And then once you evaluate, if you're deficient in something correct it. That way if you have to correct some of those deficiencies, you're not called out on it. Essentially, you're not being a poor leader. 

ROY: Right. That's a good point. So, let's talk a little bit about you. You graduated in 2022, yet here you are back at the Institute. Talk a little bit about the role you have now and what you've learned from that experience.

SHOCKEY: Right. So since graduating in May, I went home for a whole four days, came back on the 31st and now I’m interning at the Center for Leadership and Ethics (CLE). And so really what I have been doing, I've been principally supporting the director, Colonel Gray, and day-to-day.

ROY: Executive director, now!

SHOCKEY: Now, yes, I knew a new title there, but I am supporting him and Colonel Looney and in day-to-day operations but also supporting the conference planning team and establishing the frameworks for the fall leadership conference here at VMI. And really what I've been doing is taking this as an opportunity before continuing on with a military career to take all the lessons that I've learned while at VMI, whether it was in positions of leadership, in the classroom, or any other walks of life at VMI, incorporating that with lessons that I'm learning as an intern. And so that way I can better support the conference team and establishing a really robust conference for the participants who will be coming this fall and to better support the team.

ROY: Yeah, you've been heavily involved in doing a lot of research on the scenarios. So, one of the things that our leadership conference is known for is the interactive and engaging activities.

Talk a little bit about what, from your position as a former cadet, what we're putting together. If you can talk about the title of the conference, the theme and what the learning objectives are and what your role has been in and what we're trying to go for in those sessions.

SHOCKEY: Right. So, when I first came aboard the CLE, I had to get spun up very quickly on everything that's going on from the overall center theme for the academic year, which is “The Courage of Convictions.” And I had to get very spun up quickly with what the theme was for the conference coming up this fall. And that's called “Principled Dissent: Navigating Moral Challenges.”

ROY: Yeah, because by the time you came on, we had actually spent the whole spring developing what would our annual theme be, what the title of the conference would be, and then what did we want to do during the conference. We had already started, you know, selecting speakers, but so, yeah. You're right in the deep end of the pool there because we worked the entire summer putting together then the programing, the flow of content. 

SHOCKEY: Right. So, once I did get spun up, I was given some guidance from the center director and the conference team. And principally what I've been doing. Like you mentioned, you know, I've been nose deep in a lot of newsreels, news articles and some books from the speakers attending the conference. And once I got a general understanding and a direction to march in, if you will, I have since been tasked with establishing these scenarios. And the scenarios are rather controversial in nature, and that's solely because, you know, with the, the title of the conference being “Principal Dissent: Navigating Moral Challenges,” the conference is intending thing to equip the participants with necessary tools to know when, where and how to principally dissent against something within some sort of organization. And when you're presented with a moral dilemma or a challenge, you know, taking those where when, why and how method to principally dissent push back against whether it's a leader or another follower or a peer and so, what I've been doing is crafting these scenarios that will engage the participants, and they will present these moral challenges or dilemmas, and the participants have to take the tools that are given to them from the speakers or from a collective group discussion. And they have to overcome the challenges that are within the scenarios, and they have to be able to game plan a method of principled dissent against that challenge, not only how to do it, but why they're doing it. So, whenever you are going to dissent, you have to have a why. Anything you do in life, you have to have a why. So, that's really what I've been doing is to establish these scenarios that are going to maybe knock the cadets or participants kind of back a little bit, make them think, challenge them. And so that way when they do come to a conclusive answer, they should be able to, in a group discuss it and even within that, I hope to have some [differing] opinions or thoughts that where they can be civil discourse. You know, that's, that's even a part of their courage of convictions or being a courageous follower to be able to establish a place in which you can have that civil discourse or culture of candor or as Colonel Gray likes to say.

ROY: Having graduates who engage in civil discourse, who are who know how to stand their ground and work within the system, is definitely one of the goals of, of graduating from VMI, this whole system. Speaking of which, I wonder what your impression is of the connections between your cadetship experiences and all the leadership things that you learned now to working in an organization? We’re military style, but, you know, you went through OCS (Officer Candidate School), but this is a bit of a different kind of an organization working for a higher education department. Can you talk about, you know, what your impression is of the connection of what you learned and what you brought into the workplace?

SHOCKEY: Yeah. So, when I was at the Institute, you know, ultimately at the end of the day, if there is a time in which let's say we're discussing some plans for a Rat Line activity and, you know, there are two individuals with [differing] opinions on what should be done or how it should be conducted. You know, there could be some discourse. Maybe the common ground is reached, and it gets presented to the commandant or some other Institute official, and it ultimately gets shut down. And you have to go back to square, square one, right. And you start over. And it just kind of an ever-evolving kind of circle, if you will, of back and forth, and sometimes when it gets to be too much, you know, Institute officials might just be like, “Nope, this is what we're doing. It's a little late. You’re behind the ball. The plan got out a little late. So, we're going to we're going to rock this plan that I just made up,” which is okay because sometimes, you know, cadets, we like to procrastinate a little bit or, you know, that common ground can't be reached because, you know, we are still developing leaders and kind of have strong opinions on certain things.

And so, since graduating and coming into the center, I kind of saw the same thing. Some colleagues within the center, you know, there might be different opinions on something, you know, I like this, or I don't think that'll grab the cadets’ attention or I think this will work someone else might say, “No, I don't think this will work.” And there's, there's a civil discourse there. You know, it's heard from the other from both parties. They hear knowledge. And then the common grounds reached. And then from there, it's moved on. Next thing is the next item of business is on deck to get it discussed or planned out. And that's really what I saw was the ability for individuals to look each other in the eye, say, “I don't like that. Oh, well, I don't like that,” you know, and then come back the next day and just keep working on the problem set in to a get solved.

ROY: Yeah. Was there anything that surprised you about working in that kind of an environment?

SHOCKEY: I think the biggest thing that surprised me was being the intern; you kind of have the idea of coming in to shuttle coffee or to get coffee for the boss, you know? But being the intern, when there is some of that discourse, especially when it comes to cadet, like, you know, will the cadets do this or what would a cadet think of this?

And there's two different ideas between the colleagues, and they turn and look at me as the intern and get my thoughts and opinions. And I give it. To have someone say, “You know, I think that's a good idea,” or “I think that works.” Or even to have someone say, “No, that won't work,” or “I don't like that.” Just to have that kind of struck me a little bit. It took me back. But like I said, come in the next day, no problem. So, it just keeps getting worked until it gets solved. And as an intern, I didn't really think I'd be a part of that necessarily. 

ROY: Yeah, you're definitely playing a, a crucial role. You know, we really do look to our interns to give us their honest opinion and to be candid. So, Colonel Gray, I think, has done a great job setting the environment where candor could happen. But then at the end of the day, he reserves that executive privilege to say, “Okay, I've heard your input. Here's what we're going to do. And my decision is now your decision.”

SHOCKEY: Right. You know, I've always known that's been a crucial part of an organization, of any organization. But to see it in action from the flip side of things, you know, not from the cadet lens, but from an individual within an operating organization here at VMI, it definitely kind of solidified that thought of how things truly do operate, not just this notion I had.

ROY: So, speaking of a notion that you had, what was your idea of what kind of activities the center undertook?

SHOCKEY: So, I kind of always knew what went on at the center, but once I got spun up, coming on as an intern, I truly realized how much the center does take on from all the speakers to the cadet programs to the, even the fall conference. So, being an intern, I didn't think I'd be doing too much. But once I came aboard and Colonel Looney told me that I'd be kind of the sled dog on taking these scenarios and crafting these scenarios that are going to be pretty crucial at the fall conference for the participants because it's really what's going to enable the participants to practice what they have been taught so far in the conference.

ROY: Some roleplaying and some practical application of what they're learning from the speakers. 

SHOCKEY: Right. And to be told that I'm going to be the one creating those scenarios that are really crucial into to achieving the conference objectives, that kind of made me realize that what I'm doing is it's pretty important.

ROY: It's not busywork for sure.

SHOCKEY: Right. And so, it kind of it was it was it's been interesting, to say the least. It's been challenging to say the least, but it has by far exceeded my expectations, nonetheless.

ROY: So, we also learned in the introduction that you're an international studies major. Talk about what you did as an undergraduate in that program and how that's been maybe useful with putting together the programming for the leadership conference.

SHOCKEY: I graduated with a B.A. in international studies and political science. I had a minor in national security and Asian studies. And so, with all of that said, a lot of what I looked into in international studies did have to do with dissent. You know, I did quite a bit of research and tasks, especially trying to achieve that. Asia minor studies with I did a lot of research and in into those Asian countries or sub-Asian countries. And when I was doing all that research, I came across a lot of dissent.

ROY: Yeah. So, in what respect was, did you observe this dissent?

SHOCKEY: Right. So, the research kind of led me to, you know, seeing situations of coups, of leadership failures or, you know, followers of certain leaders trying to achieve certain things within their organization or their country. And in doing so, they had to challenge their leader. And so, I kind of saw a lot of that and presented some of that in my research.

And so really principally what coming out of the International Studies Department did for me was it taught me how to research for one. Being a national security minor, I had a pretty intensive thesis I had to write, and it was about a two-year research project. And out of that two-year research project, it principally taught me how to go from a mile wide down to a single scope.

When I'm establishing those scenarios or framing out the scenarios for the conference, I have to do quite a bit of research. So that way everything is backed up, and there is a measurable outcome that can come from these scenarios.

I would say that's pretty much about how the, my degree and time as an undergrad has helped me. Granted, having a working knowledge of what dissent looks like, that has certainly helped. I would say the ability to effectively research and in a timely manner get what I need out of all the news sources I'm taking in, that's, that's definitely been the, the biggest benefit that I've had.

ROY: So, going back to your cadetship, now that you've done this research on our topic, which I think is directly relevant and I think it'll give our audience, cadets or otherwise, some great tools for how to handle conflict, how to handle when you've been given some instruction or advice that is immoral, unjust, unethical, or just maybe not the best way. You see a more efficient way of doing… How do you handle that within the organization effectively? Did you, reflecting back now, have some instances during your cadetship where dissent would have been useful or exercised but maybe exercised poorly? What would you change now? Can you, do you have any examples that you can think of? 

SHOCKEY: Yeah, when I was [in my] second-class year. So, when we were talking about my leadership positions here at the Institute, you know, going from class system, from my junior year as a second-class representative of the Rat Disciplinary Committee, back to the reg system, my first-class year, is not very common. So, and to be quite honest, a part of that was because of my own downfall.

So, in my junior year, I found myself in a situation where we were correcting individuals of poor deficiencies (below the expected standards of a VMI cadet regarding uniform, behavior, tidiness, etc.). When we took it upon ourselves to fix those actions, I was just being a blind follower. And ultimately at the end of the day, it resulted in my separation from the committee later on. And so, knowing what I know now, that would have been a perfect instance in which I should have dissented. 

ROY: You should have exercised some principled dissent.

SHOCKEY: Right. Maybe there's… I should have stood up and said maybe, you know, there's maybe another way in which we can approach this. Maybe we should take this to a different entity. This is not us to fix someone else can fix it. But I was just, you know, still going through the leadership process at VMI being in this leader, leadership lab. I just took it, ran with it, and kind of supported my senior leadership and what they were asking me to do. And so, knowing what I know now, that would be a perfect instance in which me personally I should have stood up and principally dissented against what was being asked of me. But there there's several other instances I can think off the top of my head in which, you know, other cadets not necessarily involving me, where other cadets should be able to stand up, you know, principally dissent, or offer other avenues of approach to solving some kind of solution or deficiency but they don't. And they don't out of fear of being reprimanded or out of fear of being the, quote-unquote, subordinate within the organization. So, they feel that they can't. So, I think the concept that we're trying to establish with our conference of principle dissent, how to navigate those moral challenges, is going to greatly enhance the cadets who attend. It will enhance VMI in so far as it will allow them to go back into barracks or, you know, back to whatever respective institution they came from and start establishing the foundation of a culture in which, you know, that subordinate can stand up and principally dissent against something that challenges their moral compass or to be a more courageous follower and to bring up, to raise their voice in certain situations.

ROY: And there are some left and right bounds to that, right? You don't want to be coming up against maybe injustice in a way that then looks like recklessness or rebellion just for the sake of rebellion.

SHOCKEY: Right.

ROY: And so, part of that is you, we’re going to talk about during the conference is a little bit of counting the cost.

So, you've been given an instruction, you're like, “Oh, this doesn't really sit right with me. Now what?” And so, that moment to reflect and consider if I challenge the system… and I think, you know, you touched on people having a fear because I was thinking in my mind, is your answering that question, you know, what is the obstacle? 

I mean, I know what my obstacles are. It is fear. And I think the first time you stand up for what's right and you believe you're on the high moral ground, you know, there's some emotions involved. There's some even some physical reactions like, you know, maybe you start to shake. For women, we tend to cry or, you know, we just, we are just unnerved.

Basically, the way I could describe it. And so, can you talk a little bit about, you know, what kind of nerve does it take and where can you find the courage? You know, what is that process like mentally to say, “This is not striking me well. I need to give pause, reflect and then come up with a plan.”

Would you say that was part of your thought process or is that just in hindsight?

SHOCKEY: I mean, looking in retrospect now, I would say no. You know, being a 19-20-year-old college student. It’s not really what's going through my mind. But after a lot of self-reflection, yes. And in so as far to touch on what you were asking about the nerves and what it takes to stand up, it takes a lot, you know, to be, if you will, a kind of the black sheep of the organization. It takes a lot. You know, every leader is a follower, and every follower is a leader to some degree. And so, it, it was my downfall that I wasn't being an adequate leader in so far as though I was being a follower to my officials in the committee, I could have been a leader and a courageous follower and stood up and said, “You know, let's find a different avenue.” And it takes a lot of nerve to be that first one. But after that first one does stand up and voice their opinions or, or provide some other solution to the problem set, the more is to follow. So, once you get the 1, 2, 3, it just keeps building and building and building. And that's when you got a movement.

ROY: Right. So, once somebody has the courage to speak up, then others are like, “Okay, I can wander around to this territory a little bit myself.” And you do find that over time you may get some other support from your peers to say, “Yeah, you know what, what Shockey’s standing up for is right. And I agree.” But sometimes it does take that first person to kind of break the ice there.

SHOCKEY: Right. You know, once it once that first person does break, that ice eliminates that element of fear for others, fear of being reprimanded because someone else already did it, you know. Though a little bit of, you know, that group dynamic might come into play there. But I certainly do think that being the first one does take the most nerves. And those are the true courageous followers and great leaders who do do that.

ROY: What's great about your story, too, is that it didn't, your leadership experiences didn't stop at that moment. Like, you know, you got the news that you were going to be separated from that particular activity that you were doing. Can you share some details or what you learned about; you know? Who approached you? How did you recover? What made you feel like, "Okay, I can still do something else leadership-wise" and continue on.

SHOCKEY: Right. Yeah, I fell down a little bit. I stumbled there. I really, truly realized the importance of self-reflection. And so, I principally took the second half of my junior year in my second semester and did a lot of self-reflection of me as the individual and where I stand as a leader, my values as a leader. And so that was the biggest takeaway I got from that situation was to self-reflect and the value of self-reflection when you're in the position of a leader. 

ROY: ’Cause the temptation is when something like that happens, you talked about perception is reality, some people could internalize that and be like, “Oh, they're so unfair. That wasn't right. I was treated, you know, badly,” or something. So, it's interesting that you actually said, “Okay, this happened.” You must have found merit in the accusations and then you took it upon yourself to reflect and say, “Okay, now, now what's the path forward?”

SHOCKEY: Right. Yeah. So, you know, maybe even now I can admit that, yeah, maybe at the time there was some finger pointing and some head banging and surprise. You know, this is, you know, wasn't my doing. I was just doing what I was told, you know, poor followership on my part, if you will, and some poor leadership qualities there. But the self-reflection is where, you know, that growth comes out of. 

And so that growth enabled me to come back my senior year as that first Battalion executive officer. You know, that's the great thing about VMI being the leadership lab that it is. Yes, I might have stumbled and fallen… some other, other individuals, you know, broadly speaking, from VMI as a whole, some other individuals fall in their leadership positions, but they're not totally barred. There's a chance to learn and redeem and to prove yourself as a leader once again. And, you know, that didn't come very easy. That came after all the self-reflection. I had guidance from several members of the commandant’s staff who did kind of knock that kind of finger pointing out to me a little bit, figuratively speaking. And they were the ones who guided and mentored me into being a better leader and to learn from it, rather than just dwell on it.

ROY: That's excellent. That's really good. I think that that to me also emphasizes the role of the, quote-unquote, adults at VMI. There's teaching and learning going on. There's the sharing of insights, there's self-reflection, and there's coaching and mentorship. There's lots of opportunities for that to take place outside of the classroom as well as inside of the classroom. So, it's great that you had some folks on the commandant’s staff who took a personal interest in saying, “Hold up here. You know, you went through this experience. Yeah, it kind of rocked you a little bit but let's get you through this.” And then you came back and [were] able to get a different and another leadership position.

Can you talk about what kind of impact would you say the firsts have? I know you're very passionate about how the first classmen in particular are leading and taking command. Your first-class year that is the role, the quote unquote leadership theme is command. Now that you've had all these experiences, it's your turn at the bat to have an influence over, you know, cadet life in a in large part. Can you talk a little bit about that?

SHOCKEY: So being [a member of the] first class leadership, a lot of what you do is you plan and coordinate. So, you're essentially kind of a theorizers. You're establishing the guidelines and plans to be given, whether it's Rat Line activities or if it's just related to the corps in general. And so, yes, you're in command, but you also are tasked with influencing.

That influence, and I didn't really realize until I graduated from the Institute, that influence that you have as a as a senior leader at VMI, it's pretty existential, whether you use it or not, whether, you know, you're influencing others or not, you are. If you're in a high leadership position, people are watching you. They're observing you. And I revert back to that self-discipline or leading yourself that I talked about earlier. If you can't lead yourself, you're not very disciplined in your own actions. Other people will see that. They won't have a trust or a respect for you, you know?

ROY: Yeah, people are watching for sure. Right.

SHOCKEY: And so, if you have a good working foundation of all that, you know, you're influencing, leading others even when you're not. And that's really what I took away from my senior year was that and coming back now to the Institute in a different capacity, not as a cadet. I really see that in the class of ’23 as they're kicking off their, their Rat Line and their academic year. 

And I try to continue to coach and mentor the, right, the seniors now. And since I'm fresh out of it, I have no, not all the insight and experience of the world, but I have some to offer to them. And that was that's been my biggest nugget of advice if you will, is, you know, learn how to lead yourself, take care of yourself so that way you can effectively lead and influence others, even when you're trying not to.

ROY: So, what would you say was, as a first, what was your hope in as far as leaving an impression on the Institute? What were you hoping to do either individually or as a class?

SHOCKEY: Well, individually, aside from hoping to graduate…

ROY: [laughing] That’s important!

SHOCKEY: Right. I think my big hope was to create a culture of buy-in. And when I say a culture of buy-in, I mean getting everyone on the same sheet of music to have, you know, Major General, he talks about “One Corps, One VMI,” (a motivating motto at VMI, also the title of Superintendent Maj. Wins’ strategic plan) that’s his guidance and directive.

And so, I took that and really what I was trying to do on the individual level as the battalion executive officer was establish one battalion, you know, try to work towards that “One Corps, One VMI.” And I always started that with discipline and standards. So, I took it upon myself to hold myself to the highest standard I possibly could in hopes that others realize it. In hopes that others see that I buy in to the system in which VMI operates.

And once they see that, maybe they evaluate themselves or do that self-reflecting that everyone should have learned from their rat year. Learn to lead yourself. And once they see that I've, you know, bought into that, then they start to buy into it. And like we talked about earlier, it just takes one person to start a movement. So, once one person begins to buy in, you know, it spreads to their roommates, or their roommates are starting to buy in.

And so that's really what I try to strive to do when I was here as a first. And as a whole, as a class of ’22, some of the senior leadership, we kind of adopted that mindset, that mentality, and portrayed it onto the corps. You know, whether it stuck or not, I would love to see, love to see how the...

ROY: See that played out.

SHOCKEY: …new academic year starts and kicks off and see if it does sticks. If that that culture of buy-in did kind of embed itself a little bit. And so that's really what I kind of embodied my senior year to be. And that's what I hope that, you know, those below me who are still here now, you know, when I go over to the barracks to help a company as an ATAC (assistant TAC officer), I hope that they see me and remember that I always strove to be the highest standard possible or that, you know, I bought into it. And when I see me, they remember like, “Oh yeah, he did this, this and this. I remember that. And I tried to emulate that.” And so, that's really what I tried to do when I was a senior leader here.

ROY: Yeah. And I think that there is there's definitely a tension, even if it's just a mental perception issue between buy in and self-expression. And so having buy-in, you know, I work in a department, I've worked in organizations for many years now. You I liken that to keeping your mind on what is our mission. And so, within that mission, I can operate within my role and within the personality of who I am as an individual. 

Putting mission first of an organization does not detract in my mind from who I am as Major Roy. Can you talk a little bit about that tension between “One Corps, One VMI” and people being individuals?

SHOCKEY: Yeah, I don't want to say it's necessarily like a major problem. It's by no means a problem. But there are some instances in which you can look around in barracks and see those individuals who don't necessarily buy into the VMI life. They don't they came here solely for academics or they came here to further pursue their athletic careers. 

And every individual comes to VMI for their own reasons. And that's good and well. Once you come to VMI, once you get into the system, it's important to [adapt] to the system. You know, take that system and make it your way of life.

ROY: What we’re trying to achieve here is for everyone to embody, um, you know, let’s say, The Honor Code or the VMI principles and values that we’re saying [are] important. Plus then by class year, you’ve got those themes of followership, influence, leadership (preparing to lead), command (found in “The VMI Leader Journey” booklet) that’s what we’re really talking about when we talk about the VMI system. It’s growing and developing so that you graduate as a citizen soldier.

SHOCKEY: Right. Yeah. And so that's, that's the biggest thing that people need to realize is when they come here, they have to adopt all that. Like you just mentioned, Honor Code, all aspects of VMI, the VMI mission, Major General Wins’ mission, his personal mission set that he would like to achieve and see from the Institute, whether it's that ten-year mark or just for that single academic year. 

You know, I came to VMI, yes, for my own individual reasons. But to be able to be that great citizen soldier coming out, I need to accept and adopt all these mission sets, if you will, and to my own mission set, incorporate that with my own values, you know, my own upbringings, and impute that and spit that out and do your own leadership style. And so that's, that's really where that culture of buy-in arises from.

ROY: I think that really does a great job of encapsulating, too, how, how having a mission-first mindset still allows you to operate as an individual because you're taking all those lessons and you're saying, “How does this apply to me and what is my leadership style?” And I think that over the four-year cadetship, you do learn that if you've been purposeful and done a lot of self-reflection as you have done. 

Do you have any final words or, you know, what is it you would like to impart in terms of wisdom upon the, either the Rat Mass who are coming here and maybe trying to say, "Why did I make this choice?" or those who are leading them as the, the other upperclassman?

SHOCKEY: As far as for the rats who, who just recently matriculated to this past Saturday on the 20th, I would say that remember why you came to VMI and remember that.

ROY: That's your “mission first.”

SHOCKEY: Right. Yeah, there was I was with my company last night and there was an individual who rat who asked, you know, “How is this equated to the Marine Corps? Is Marine Corps training like this?” And I simply just said, “One day at a time, that's a good, a good interim, long goal, long-term goal, but for right now, just focus on this week. We can talk after this week.”

ROY: [laughing] That’s good!

SHOCKEY: So, my biggest advice is, you know, just focus intermittently on small goals. Achieve those goals your freshman year. Really focus on how to lead yourself. And, you know, I've had discussions even with the highest-ranking cadets here. You know, some of them, they're very stressed going into this week going into Hell Week (trainings that take place prior to the commencement of the start of classes), they’re stressed with getting plans out.

So, it's kind of hindering their eating habits, their sleeping habits. You know, I've sat down with some of them and said, “Look, you can't be an effective leader if you can't lead yourself. It's not selfish. You've got to look after you've got to look after yourself to be able to look after the ones who are under your umbrella of leadership and responsibility.”

And so, with that, I would just say, you know, enjoy your time here at VMI. It goes very quickly. I was just four years ago.

ROY: [laughing] More like “embrace the suck” at the moment, right?

SHOCKEY: Yeah. There are going to be some hard, challenging moments. But with those moments, there's always a silver lining. And with every silver lining, there has to be self-reflection and self-evaluation, and really take the time at VMI to grow. And once you get out of VMI, don't stop reflecting. Reflect on your time at VMI, the lessons you've learned, the situations you have been put into, whether good or bad and incorporate that into your lifestyle and who you are as an individual and as a leader, whether you go military or civilian life. And you will be greatly appreciated by everyone who's around you just because you're able to incorporate what you learned, what you've been through into your present life.

ROY: It's a maturing process, for sure.

SHOCKEY: It is.

ROY: Yeah. Yeah. So, what's next for you?

SHOCKEY: So next I will depart the, the CLE here on 10 October. I take a couple of days to you know do some of that self-reflecting of my time at the center what I learned from those I've worked around the past couple of months. And then on the 17th of October, I will report to The Basic School in Quantico, Virginia, and continue on with my Marine Corps career. 

ROY: Excellent. We wish you much-continued success. You've been a great addition to our team this year, worked very hard. And I'm sure I can speak for the rest of the department and just say, we've really appreciated having you on board and your work has been important and vital to the team. It's too bad you won't be able to see it in action for the Leadership Conference, but your peers will be able to and all those folks that you've been talking with over the past week and continuing to inspire and, of course, now that we've been able to capture this conversation, I hope that people will refer to this episode time and time again, at least at the beginning of each academic year. So, thank you very much, Lieutenant Shockey, for being with us. And I look forward to hearing from you and staying in touch with you and seeing how your career progresses in the years to come.

SHOCKEY: Thank you. I look forward to it.

ROY: On behalf of the VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics. We thank the following. Mr. Caleb Minus VMI class of 2020 for the intro and backing music, find more of his musical stylings on his Instagram page at minus official. That's @MYNUSOfficial. Colonel Dave Gray, Ph.D., U.S. Army retired director of the VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics. And of course, as always, our podcast guests.

Find this podcast and other CLE programming information on the VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics website VMI, dot edu forward-slash CLE. Follow the VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, or Instagram accounts.

The VMI Center for Leadership and Ethics educates, engages, and inspires the VMI Corps of Cadets, VMI staff, faculty and alumni, and listeners like you. Thanks for tuning in.